Use of stepped sine wave UPS with SONY Bracia Flat Panel LCD TV

|>Hi; |>I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations |>manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off the
|>TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc |>PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS | | Why? Is it absolutely critical that you be able to watch TV during a | power outage? Is your life so tightly tied up with the Simpsons that | you cannot spare a few minutes without television?
If the power goes out, that's the same effect as pulling the plug. He might have the TV on when the power goes out. I don't know what is screwed up in that TV design that requires this, but something certainly is. But I believe he's trying to find a workaround by having a UPS that gives up a time window to turn the TV off properly.
Perhaps the beast is running Windows based software inside in which case it could fail to restart properly upon power resumption. Or it could be from any number of other bad design decisions.
I have already noticed that some some DVD players that remember where on the DVD you currently are at if you turn the player off with the power button fail to do that if you just unplug it. Bad design, but given the limitations of flash memory, they certainly don't want to be saving the current position every second. With proper power supply design, however, the CPU and flash memory can remain powered long enough when the mains power source goes out to complete a flash save. They apparently don't want to design that.
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I can't believe it is anything more serious than not allowing the post-operation cooling cycle to complete. If these things really break when power is removed (for whatever reason), Sony will have a massive problem on its hands. I just don't believe that even the modern Sony of today is that stupid.
If you don't warn consumers with strong enough language, they will connect their big-screen (or projector) to a switched outlet and it will never get the power-down cooling cycle. And/or it will go through the setup routine (finding channels, etc.) every time you turn it on.

The average frequency of power interruption seems unlikely to warrant such extraordinary measures. I doubt it even uses Flash. Remember that lots of consumer stuff (most especially VCRs, etc.) just turn off the display and continue to consume just as much power as when they were "on".
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|> Scott Dorsey wrote: |> | **THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** wrote: |> |>Hi; |> |>I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations |> |>manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off |> the |> |>TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc |> |>PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS |> | |> | Why? Is it absolutely critical that you be able to watch TV during |> a |> | power outage? Is your life so tightly tied up with the Simpsons |> that |> | you cannot spare a few minutes without television? |> |> If the power goes out, that's the same effect as pulling the plug. |> He might have the TV on when the power goes out. I don't know what |> is screwed up in that TV design that requires this, but something |> certainly is. But I believe he's trying to find a workaround by |> having a UPS that gives up a time window to turn the TV off properly. |> |> Perhaps the beast is running Windows based software inside in which |> case it could fail to restart properly upon power resumption. Or it |> could be from any number of other bad design decisions. | | I can't believe it is anything more serious than not allowing | the post-operation cooling cycle to complete. If these things | really break when power is removed (for whatever reason), | Sony will have a massive problem on its hands. I just don't | believe that even the modern Sony of today is that stupid.
I've heard of such things happening, not in all cases, but in some cases, particularly if power is lost very shortly after it comes on (think: reclosers). It's probably not a big problem, but it is their problem.
| If you don't warn consumers with strong enough language, | they will connect their big-screen (or projector) to a switched | outlet and it will never get the power-down cooling cycle. | And/or it will go through the setup routine (finding channels, | etc.) every time you turn it on.
Still, IMHO, a bad design. Active cooling should not be needed when there is no active heating. And channel status should be saved in flash memory, and periodically scanned when not in use, as well as channel status noted whcn the user changes around. The full scan should only be needed on initial setup or when the user requests it.
|> I have already noticed that some some DVD players that remember where |> on the DVD you currently are at if you turn the player off with the |> power button fail to do that if you just unplug it. Bad design, but |> given the limitations of flash memory, they certainly don't want to |> be saving the current position every second. With proper power supply |> design, however, the CPU and flash memory can remain powered long |> enough |> when the mains power source goes out to complete a flash save. They |> apparently don't want to design that. | | The average frequency of power interruption seems unlikely | to warrant such extraordinary measures. I doubt it even uses | Flash. Remember that lots of consumer stuff (most especially | VCRs, etc.) just turn off the display and continue to consume | just as much power as when they were "on".
Given that the original statement was:
|> |>I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations |> |>manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off
It seems like it is acceptable to pull the plug so long as you have done a turn off operation first. That's not consistent with a device that keeps its data only in volatile RAM. If it's just a RAM issue, then pulling the plug won't care whether a turnoff is done or not. So I suspect it is storing in RAM but with a sufficient power supply to keep the DC level up long enough to complete the flash save, or a lack of ability to detect loss of AC power. Bad design.
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Modern projectors (especially "road-warrior", portable type), servo-controlled lamps, etc. etc. would be non-viable in the modern market it they were designed large enough to allow unaided convection cooling. Furthermore the heat is so concentrated far inside that I question whether one could design such equipment for natural cooling regardless of size.
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|> Still, IMHO, a bad design. Active cooling should not be needed |> when there is no active heating. | | Modern projectors (especially "road-warrior", portable type), | servo-controlled lamps, etc. etc. would be non-viable in the | modern market it they were designed large enough to allow | unaided convection cooling. Furthermore the heat is so | concentrated far inside that I question whether one could | design such equipment for natural cooling regardless of size.
But wasn't the OP talking about a home display model?
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How do you think they get that bright, large-area back-light without what you call "active heating"? Even fluorescent sources (and their ballasts, etc.) get pretty warm.
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On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:02:56 -0500, **THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** Has Frothed:

Been running a Panasonic 51" rear projection on an APC 1500 for a few years. Also run my DirecTV DVR on it. Did this after getting fed up with power interruptions that have since been fixed. I don't notice any problems with my equipment.
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000708080307060902020400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thanks; I assume the APC1500 is stepped Sine?
Meat Plow wrote:

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On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:17:58 -0500, **THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** Has Frothed:

Yep.
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Thanks!
Meat Plow wrote:

Thanks!
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020009000606090701050205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thanks; I assume the APC1500 is stepped sinewave? Also good idea about the cable box. Mine is a DVR with a harddrive.
I should clarify that these are not brown outs but are repeated blackouts as the power utility trys and fails to auotomatically reclose its breakers. This results in an OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF cycle.
Meat Plow wrote:

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"**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**" wrote ...

To deal with that sort of thing, I have just hooked up a relay so that it turns off at the first drop, and then you can manually re-enable it after the power is reliable again. If you aren't home at the time, no harm/no foul.
Trying to use a UPS to work around this just seems like a worse idea than doing nothing.
PLEASE TURN OFF THE HTML FORMATTING!!!!! YOU ARE POSTING TO ASCII, PLAIN-TEXT NEWS- GROUPS.
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Thanks; I assume the APC1500 is stepped sinewave? Also good idea about the cable box. Mine is a DVR with a harddrive.

as the power utility trys and fails to >auotomatically reclose its breakers. This results in an >OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF cycle. sometimes blackouts begin with a brownout.Here in Crete, half of the island was left without power, when on one of the 3 main power stations, outside of Iraklion, was a short circuit in one of the 150 kV insulators, but the other half of the island remained "live".The infamous blackout of Athens, just a few months before the olympic games, happened when several units were lost of tripping, the worst one 300 MW just outside of Athens.When they tried to bring it back, it tripped again because of some steam problem, and just a couple of seconds before the 400 kV breakers opened, separating the south grid from the north grid, the voltage at the busbars had fallen down to 107 kV (nominal:150 kV).IMHO you should do nothing, just when the power is out be sure that you have turned everything off (maybe with a switched power strip) and when you are sure power is really back, turn everything back on.
-- Tzortzakakis Dimitrios major in electrical engineering mechanized infantry reservist dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
Meat Plow wrote:
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:02:56 -0500, **THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** Has Frothed:
Hi; I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off the TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS
The UPS I am considering would be something like an APC Back-UPS 650, which are plentiful, easy to repair but have a stepped sinewave output.
Can anyone tell me if there would be any reliability issues in running this setup? I know that there might be an AC hum issue with the sound system due to switching transients. I don't intend to back up my audio amplifier. I only want the TV and CD changer to ride out the numerous brownouts we get in Florida.
(*The Pioneer must be on standby to retain memory and turns back on from standby on power interruptions).
Been running a Panasonic 51" rear projection on an APC 1500 for a few years. Also run my DirecTV DVR on it. Did this after getting fed up with power interruptions that have since been fixed. I don't notice any problems with my equipment.
-- Joe Leikhim K4SAT "The RFI-EMI-GUY"
"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."
"Follow The Money" ;-P
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Joe, It would be hard to trust any answer you get. The situation is confused because the typical computer power supply is very tough, and that's what these things are made for. It would help if we knew why Sony doesn't want you to pull the plug. Some Japanese gear store the operational status of the equipment in flash rom. A consequence of this very poor practice is that there have been a few cases where the firmware could be corrupted by power outages. On the other hand, if they don't want you to pull the plug because the power supply itself is vulnerable, more care would be required in selection of a backup supply. I would first get more information from Sony technical support, and then repost if necessary.
Regards, Bob Morein Dresher, PA (215) 646-4894
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**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** wrote:

When I lost power in the big windstorm last week it was in the middle of my weekly movie night gathering. I hooked the RPTV, reciever and DVD player to a cheap inverter connected to the car and we watched the rest of the movie and another one after that. I noticed no difference in performance at all, the only effect was the 60Hz power transformer in the reciever emitted a buzzing sound, the sound from the speakers was clean as always.
Computers run fine off cheap UPS's and inverters and most modern equipment has very similar switchmode power supplies. Give it a try, but chances are it'll work just fine.
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Thanks !
James Sweet wrote:

Thanks!
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[This followup was posted to sci.electronics.repair and a copy was sent to the cited author.]
snipped-for-privacy@nettally.com says...

You may want to consider UPS's designed for audio systems, or a higher- end UPS such as APC's Smart-UPS series which output true sine-wave. The drawback might be some noise. I had one for awhile, but it would make a chirp sound occasionally, even when I disconnected the beeper!! I assume it was some electronic component vibrating.
It's about $310 list for a 750VA model (about 500W), and $460 for 1000 VA (700w).
http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id 5
I should mention I have a BackUPS ES 725 on my system (current version is the ES 750). My TV is a CRT and is NOT on the battery backup section (4 outlets are backed up, 4 are not.) I have the cable box (Motorola DCT-6412) and DVD player on the battery side.
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| I have just bought a new Sony Bravia 46S2010 LCD TV. The operations | manual warns against pulling the AC plug without first turning off the | TV. - No problem, I would like to run the TV and my Pioneer 300 disc | PD-F1007 Jukebox CD changer* from a UPS
IMHO, this is sufficient mis-feature to urge others to not buy such a product. Sony needs to re-hire some decent design engineers.
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

The difference between Sony and affordable brands like Truetech and Apex is that Sony adds useless features that you don't need like you have to turn the tv off before pulling the plug. And other useless features that actally make the picture and sound worse. But the build quality is the same and the picture quality is actually better on brands like Apex and Protron.
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

This has been the case for decades with high powered projection devices. Remember the old slide projectors that would run the fan for a few minutes after shutting it off?
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