voltage dependency of circuit breakers

Apr 16, 2004 24 Replies

| And just where do you buy your breakers? What brands and model numbers are you | specifically talking about?

GFCI breakers of more than one model and brand have been found to do continuous activation under RF fields. I have not tested AFCI breakers for this problem. Someone else tested a GFCI breaker under a low voltage condition and found a related problem (though it probably did not open the contacts). The low voltage apparently could not get a complete action by the solenoid. Since the load remained powered and the ground fault test was still there, it kept trying, and continuously cycled. In the low voltage test it is likely also drawing less current than in the RF field test. The RF problem could result in the solenoid burning up sooner, but the low voltage situation should not be ignored since there are real world scenarios where half voltage can happen on a long term basis (I've seen it for over 3 hours and have heard of it over over

24 hours in an extreme case). Motors can also burn up in scenarios like that, but a protection device that could be rather simply fixed should not be allowed to be an ignition source.

| wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@news4.newsguy.com... | On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 21:26:44 -0500 Brian wrote: | | | Get a clue. 20a breaker trips above 20a! Even at a few millivolts. | | Modern circuit breakers have more "features" in them which can, and often | do, require specific voltages. There are breakers rated for a wide range | of voltages, and it may well be that those work fine even on millivolts. | But lots of breakers may not. And it has been established that GFCI and | AFCI breakers WILL NOT. Other features in special breakers could also | have similar risks. It has become apparent that when considering the use | of a breaker on an unusual voltage, to verify carefully that the breaker | is rated and tested for safe use at that voltage. | | -- | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | Phil Howard KA9WGN |

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| | | (first name) at ipal.net |
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The existing design does not allow oscillation under a fault condition for which the GFCI is designed. Installing the device backward, as you asked about, would allow oscillation under a fault condition for which the GFCI is designed.

The point is that installing a GFCI backwards would not resolve the problem you want resolved, and would introduce a problem in addition to whatever you see as a problem with the current design. Thus, to meet your requirements, a re-design would be needed. I believe that is what you have in mind with what you wrote below.

How much of a problem exists today with GFCI's tripping or failing due to strong RF fields? How much of a problem exists that would be resolved by designing GFCIs to operate at 60 volts? If it is extensive enough, perhaps some manufacturers will make what you want available. As far as making such a device a code requirement, you can write a proposal to have the requirement included in the NEC.

| The existing design does not allow oscillation | under a fault condition for which the GFCI is | designed.

This is the kind of statement that can be used to say that anything is just fine the way it is. The whole issue is that the conditions for which is was designed is incomplete.

| Installing the device backward, as | you asked about, would allow oscillation under | a fault condition for which the GFCI is designed. | | The point is that installing a GFCI backwards would | not resolve the problem you want resolved, and would | introduce a problem in addition to whatever you see | as a problem with the current design. Thus, to meet | your requirements, a re-design would be needed. I | believe that is what you have in mind with what | you wrote below.

Yes, a re-design is what I meant. The backwards installation idea was meant as an illustration to understand the nature of the problem.

| How much of a problem exists today with GFCI's tripping or | failing due to strong RF fields? How much of a problem | exists that would be resolved by designing GFCIs to operate | at 60 volts? If it is extensive enough, perhaps some | manufacturers will make what you want available. As far as | making such a device a code requirement, you can write a | proposal to have the requirement included in the NEC.

Since encountering the RF field problem and posting about it a few times, I've heard from 3 other people who have experienced the same thing. In all cases the problem was resolved quickly because someone was there to notice. But it doesn't take much imagination to realize that the behaviour of a "cheap" solenoid continuously activating in such a small device could very well result in that solenoid burning out. The results can vary from a device that no longer provides protection to a device that is the ignition source.

As for the operation at 60 volts, I was only curious because I looked into using a 120/60 volt system, where each current carrying conductor would have a 60 volt potential to ground. While I would not expect the power to the solenoid to be referenced to ground, I did wonder if the sensing would be affected in some way. Given that a GFCI device is considered a suitable replacement for a 2-prong receptacle in a circuit without a grounding wire, it would seem it has no ground reference dependency at all, and should be able to operate on the 120 volts that is present, although at the risk of one conductor still being live after the contacts open, if the contacts are only on the supposed hot side (120/60 has both current carrying wires as hots at 60 volts to ground).

That simply got me thinking about the 60 volt issue even though it was not relevant for why I first considered it. In the scope of that issue I do realize that sometimes utility power can fall to half voltage due to loss of a phase leading into a transformer delta primary. And sometimes when that happens the system does not shut off the affected circuits, and the result is 2/3 of the single phase customers having half voltage. Under such a condition, some people who don't fully understand the problem may try to work with equipment in improper ways to see what is going on. They may end up with ground fault conditions. The voltage may be half as much, but it still poses some danger. Given the realistic possibility of a half voltage condition, I think it needs to be considered in the design. I have heard that some GFCI devices will detect being miswired and trip open on such cases. That's a good idea. So why not this one, too.

Making the solenoid so it can operate within expected ranges of half voltage (nominal 60 volts, but could fall to 50 volts), might be the more expensive part of the design. Making a solenoid or control circuit not oscillate is, I think, a less expective design. Of course this is based on what I do know about the design internals, which due to manufacturer secrecy are limited to just the basic theoretical illustrations, which didn't even show which side the solenoid was even powered from (so they are certainly not anywhere near complete).

It is a statement of fact. How it is used is of course up to the individual using it.

There's no manufacturer secrecy. You simply haven't found a schematic. It's in the public domain since June of 1992, and perhaps earlier. Invest ~ $8, buy a GFCI receptacle at Home Depot, disassemble and draw a schematic from it, if you really are interested. That way, you'll have a schematic AND knowledge of the physical construction of the device. That ought to be a worthwhile investment of your time. It's what I did. Seems to me that in your quest for what you want, the more you know about GFCI's, the better position you would be in to recommend design improvements.

Buy several different brands, as they differ significantly in their design & construction. For example, Leviton uses through-hole components somewhat haphazardly positioned on the circuit board, with an MOV stuck in the middle of them and leaning against another component. The solenoid is separate from the main board. Pass & Seymour, on the other hand, uses a very neat circuit board with mostly surface-mount components, and the MOV is remote from the circuitry. Their solenoid is mounted directly to the board. I suspect that some characteristics will vary by brand, as a result of different circuits, components & layout.

Ben Miller

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