"Butterfly knob" safe locks...

Just got a call from an old friend asking if I could take a look at his
old DOD-surplus filing cabinet, which has one of the "butterfly" S&G
locks (with a secondary turnpiece in the middle of the knob that holds
the fence away from the wheel pack until the dial is turned to a neutral
position, to prevent manipulation). It's probably been 20 years since
the beast has had any maintainance or a combo change, though it hasn't
been used very intensively over that time.
I seem to remember that there were two or three models of these. I've
never worked on them, though I know my way around other safe locks. I
seem to remember that the anti-manipulation mechanism involves a
complicated cam...
I'm trying to dig out my literature... But if anyone's got tips on what
particularly needs to be done (or not done!) with these, or reemembers
when they were last covered in LL or NL, I'd appreciate the pointers.
In particular: Are replacement parts still generally available? Were
these key-change or hand-change? And -- if it turns out that it's on the
edge of catastrophic failure -- how hard is it likely to be to swap in a
modern replacement?
Reply to
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam
Loading thread data ...
you have an S&G 8400 lock. If the container is not being used for dod purposes a 6700 will bolt right up with no modification what so ever.
Reply to
todd
and I think I got a new one of the 'butterfly' locks, laying around somewhere... if you need further advice, the ones I seen are VERTICAL UP but a 6700 should go in, get one with a tube..
LOTS of drill bits, if you do not have a drill jig, too
--Shiva--
Reply to
--Shiva--
shiva dod safes or gsa safes as they are more commonly call do not use vertical up locks they are vd with the exception of diebold that are rh. also a tubed 6700 will not work as the spindle holes are very small and hardened.
Reply to
todd
Just to be clear - is this a lockout or just routine maintenance?
If the former, manipulation is likely out of the question as a practical matter, for the reasons you mention. (There's in theory a small amount of feedback from the degree of rotation of the butterfly, but in practice the fences and wheelpacks are sufficiently tight that you won't be able to exploit it). For drilling, standard procedure on GSA containers involves attacking the bolt and replacing the drawerhead, not scoping the lock as with most safes. Note that this isn't all that difficult on a class 6 container (and there are no relockers on all but a very few models); see the GSA standard procedure (available on the navy web site). What class is it (what color is the label)? Class 5 will take you a bit longer, and you might want to call in for specialized help. If it's a GSA fireproof container, I'm not sure whether any of the older models used asbestos, so beware.
If just maintenance, first of all the cam mechanism is a really interesting design and deserves your taking advantage of the chance to study it if you've never seen one before. Make sure everything operates smoothly. Don't take apart or lubricate the wheel pack. Note that there are two types of these locks: group 1, with a brass wheelpack, and group 1R (which also resists X-ray attacks), with a plastic wheel pack. The group 1R locks do wear faster, and after 20 years (plus however many in original service) your friend's lock may be at the end of its service life.
These are still being made, and I'd suggest replacement if you have any doubt. A replacement will run about $160 from, e.g. Lockmasters. You implied that this was bought surplus, so GSA certification is not an issue. You may find that replacing the lock with an (easier to use, if less secure) 6730 and keeping the 8500 for you to play with is a good deal for both of you. If you care about the GSA certification, however, note that while I believe EXISTING mechanical locks are still DoD legal for classified applications (at least they are on SCIFs, not as sure about containers), if you replace it altogether you'll need to use an X07/X08/X09 to maintain its certification.
-Matt Blaze
Reply to
Matt Blaze
ok, I have seen BOTH ways.. he will need the tube to keep dirt out of the thing, at least on those that I have had to open. hardened or not, tube makes it last longer without troubles, and the hole can be drilled.
THis a Remington Rand, or a variation of it? whats the insulation material? IF its fireproof? Ropey asbestos stuff?
if he has the one down, then best bet , would it not be, is to take a hole saw and cut the bars? machine shop can make new to fit.
--Shiva--
Reply to
--Shiva--
Just maintainance. Effort to _prevent_ a lockout. Yes, I know what'd be involved otherwise.
I just wanted to make sure there aren't any obvious maintainance pitfalls I needed to watch out for.
Sigh. There are always mixed opinions on that. You can't inspect flies for developing stress cracks without taking the wheel pack apart.
While I wholeheartedly agree that the wrong lubricants are A Bad Thing, there are appropriate lubes for safe locks. Manufacturer recommendations vary, depending on model and materials and phase-of-moon and what was available last time they looked at the issue.
Good to know that 1R versions of this exist. I doubt that's what I'm dealing with here -- to be honest, I expect it predates suitable plastics! -- but we'll see.
Checking it out is part of the goal; changing the combo is the other.
If we're forced to replace it I suspect we'd consider electronic; preserving the cabinet as a Historic Artifact may be less of an issue than ease of maintainance. GSA rating isn't a concern in this case.
Reply to
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam
matt when you drill a gsa safe you do not need to replace the drawer head if you know how to open safes, the repair info is available on the navy web site. second the color of the label does not tell you the class. also gsa safes never have used asbestos. it looks like you have read a little on the subject but never worked on one.
Reply to
todd
Last I checked (five years ago, admittedly), the GSA officially frowned on repairing drawer heads and would not accept a repaired one as meeting their standards; they Officially Preferred that the entire head be destroyed and replaced. That actually made a lot of sense given their needs, which were not keeping people out per se but being able to detect when intrusion/tampering has occurred. (Any one attack was of less concern than ongoing espionage would be.)
If they've changed their policy since then, I'd appreciate a specific pointer to the new rules.
Of course for non-GSA applications, other concerns and other practices may be more appropriate.
Reply to
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam
I said TYPE... with that stupid LOCK on it... around my area, you say butterfly and they look at you funny- mention remington rand lock and they know which you are talking about..
--Shiva--
Reply to
--Shiva--
Yes, I'm aware of that, which I why I suggested going to that site. However, the opening procedure is rather different from most other safes, and the usual procedure is to replace the drawer head with a spare and repair the removed one later, for use as a future spare. That's been my experience, at least. Obviously, an individual with a single personally-owned surplus container will likely have different circumstances that may warrant fixing it on the spot. However, I believe to get it up to spec involves welding (at least for the class 5 containers), which may not be everyone's cup of tea (and one of the reasons I suggested specialized help especially in that particular case).
I didn't think they did, but I wasn't sure. Which I why I said "I'm not sure" with regard to GSA FIRE safes, since I wouldn't want someone to risk his or her health based on an uncertain assertion about their safety. I'm glad you're sure.
Well, you'd be mistaken about that. Perhaps for some reason you're hoping to engage in an argument. If so, I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding one somewhere, this being USENET and all.
Cheers
-matt
Reply to
Matt Blaze
My (imperfect) recollection here is that there are two sets of procedures: one for how to handle lockouts of government-owned containers (which indeed involves swapping out the drawer head and returning it to some Official Place) and another for how to repair and re-certify for classified storage an opened container. Repairs are (or at least were when I took the course) allowed for the latter purpose.
And of course you're absolutely right about the main official purpose of these containers, which is to discourage only casual pilfering but reliably detect even sophisticated unauthorized entry. It's amusingly instructive to note the time ratings on these boxes against forced entry: 0 minutes and 10 minutes, and for almost all domestic classified applications the 0 minute version is considered adequate. Of course, it's hard to imagine getting one of these open in the field in anywhere near that amount of time, and even a class 6 (0 minute) container is a pretty formidable security device by commercial standards.
Of course, for a privately-owned surplus GSA safe not used for classified storage, all of this is irrelevant, unless one decides to follow the standard on the assumption that it represents a prudent security practice.
Cheers
-matt
Reply to
Matt Blaze
joe i will only type out 1 paragraph of the spec if you want the whole spec e mail me your fax # it is 26 pages long FED-STD-809 5.5 REPAIR PROCEDURE repair the drilled hole with either : method 1a for all black label containers, using a tapered, hardened, tool steel pin, a steel dowel, drill bit or bearing method 1b for all red,blue,green label containers using a carbide center mild steel pin Use a diameter slightly larger than the hole and such a length that when driven into the hole there shall remain at each end of the pin a shallow recess not less than 1/8 nor more than 3/16 in deep to permit the acceptance of substantial welds..... this crap about cutting bolts is for unskilled workers like when a ship is out to sea and can not have a trained safe tech. do the job. By the way thanks for calling me on the carpet I think more people on the usenet need to stand behind their statements.
Reply to
todd
Matt it is not so much as to pick a fight as too so many of your statements dont make sense such as talking about servicing the lock you say not to take it apart . well that is how you service it. second you said not to lube the lock , you are suppose to lube the lock that is why S&G has a part # for lubricant, third you said the plastic wheel (securMax wheel) wears out faster than brass wheels, Why? the inner hub is constructed the same on both and that is where wear occurs. and lastly I will credit you with saying you are not sure but any classified material for the dod must be in a safe protected by a XO lock with the exception of single drawer field safes, this does not apply to contractors. once again this is no to pick a fight but to stop bad info. We need to be help to professional standards.
Reply to
todd
Todd,
Sorry, I misinterpreted your tone as being combative, when clearly that wasn't your intent.
It's entirely possible (and increasily likely with each passing year) that my memory is faulty, but I have this very clear memory if the S&G service manual for that lock making very clear not to lubricate the wheel pack, and that the lube they specify was for other parts of the lock. Again, I could well be wrong, but what you're saying is very surprising to me. My advice not to disassemble the wheel pack of the Group 1 lock was simply because this is a rather deleicate and complex mechanism (more so than a standard Group 2 lock) and someone not already familiar with it could easily screw it up in reassembly. So perhaps the best advice is "don't disassemble or lubricate the wheel pack, unless you are REALLY sure you want to."
My comment on the plastic wheels wearing faster is based entirely on anicdotal evidence, but I've seen several badly worn samples taken out of service from Group 1R locks that were much worse than similarly used brass wheels.
I think we agree about the requirements for storing classified material in GSA safes outside of SCIFs. My original comment was that mechanical locks are still found on SCIF doors, and I believe they remain "legal" (but if replaced, it must be with an X0 lock).
Cheers
-matt
Reply to
Matt Blaze
What do you mean you don't lube them? I found the little square oil reservoir hole in the back cover of the lock. Just take your tri-flow nozzle and stick it in the hole and fill the back of the lock until the lube runs out. Then you know that the oil level is correct.
Just kidding!
Ed
Reply to
Ed Jasper
Do you happen to remember exactly what flavor of lube they're recommending for this safe? In practice I've found a silicone microsphere lube, applied lightly, is safe on almost anything -- but I'd rather know.
(In fact, some manufacturers have shipped their safe locks not only lubricated but OVER-lubed, to the point where opening 'em up and wiping off most of the excess ought to be a standard part of the installation process.)
Reply to
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam

Site Timeline

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.