High Security Locks...

"Putyourspamhere" wrote in message:

" -- Many buildings are not sheetrock construction. Many industrial/commercial buildings are steel, cinderblock etc. When you are talking about sheetrock you are talking about interior spaces which are usually protected by higher overal security at the perimeter entrances. The fact is Best I/C is not a high security lock. Everyone here who has stated an opinion agrees with that except you. If you feel we are all wrong call Best. They will tell you flat out that it isn't a high security lock."

It is good to know that you understand how buildings work... But those strip malls which you speak of are only one type of building and they are designed for a specific purpose... Go to an office or commercial building somewhere and see that the masonary while used on the outside of the building is hardly (if ever) used on the interior spaces and walls... Such buildings are also 'open-access' during business hours and someone who wanted to 'case the joint' could do so and find the path of least resistance to come back in at a later time... Your concept of looking at the back of a strip mall to see no access to locks from the outside is flawed mainly for the reason of most of such doorways are commonly emergency exits and panic exit hardware doesn't require having an external lock cylinder installed... Security in retail environments is ensured more by having a monitored alarm system in use than having 'UL-437 Compliant' lock cylinders installed... I am sure that having such UL cylinders installed in a glass door defeats the entire purpose of purchasing such 'high security' locks...

So that being said it is time for you to stop saying it isn't 'high security' and explain your thoughts on this by defining a 'scale' of what 'high security' means to you... I have an idea of the point you are getting at but I want you to say it and clarify my thoughts...

Perhaps a list beginning at a 6-pin Schlage 'C' keyway and going up in progressive steps to what you consider 'high security'... At least this way people will have a better understanding of what 'high security' is and perhaps be able to associate it and its relative properties with more than just one or two brand names...

See my post from yesterday...

Evan the maintenance man

At which time presumably they would still have to attack the harder outer perimeter security.

Your concept of looking at the back of a

Serious security everywhere is ensured by having a montiored alarm.

No it doesn't. Many locations need protection from covert entry as much as from overt entry. Also consider the ramifications of a compromised master-keyed cylinder being removed and decoded (you of all people with your concern about masterkeying should be aware of this).

I have done this repeatedly. At a minimum a UL-437 compliant lock. Particularily with regard to drill resistance.That said none of what you posted above in any way backs up your assertion that Best I/C is a high security lock. Instead you are just trying to restructure your argument to avoid the debate you have already lost with regard to Best being high security.

Your apparant attempt to redefine what high security means won't help you either. What constitutes a high security lock is well understood and has been posted for you repeatedly. Yale, Medeco, Assa, Abloy and many others offer them. Best I/C is not among them. As I stated before contact Best and they will be more than happy to explain it to you if you are still confused.

No reason to be ashamed of that. It's the intelligent solution.

All of them before I would sell it to someone as high security. As to the definition itself the question becomes greater degree of resistance as compared to what? Using that definition vitually any lock would be high security compared to a kwikset. Is there not some relativity

The standard requires defense against expert attack using drilling, prying, sawing, pulling and forcing for 5 minutes; impressioning and picking for 10 minutes. And to be rated the lock must have actually passed UL's test which consists of actual expert attack using the methods above. As to a complete copy of the standard it is copy writed so it is illegal to post or redistribute in any way, although I'm sure someone has. It can be purchased from UL.

So you are saying that locks HAVE to comply with the UL-437 standard in order to be considered 'high security' ???

You have not defined 'high security' merely have danced around it and again pointed out what you think of my knowledge base...

Please tell me that you think either locksoft is wrong or that all locks are the same... IF you READ what I wrote a few posts ago or what I wrote in my last response Best I/C is 'relatively higher security' than locks of other types... That is not changing the agrument... You pointed out that they are not UL-437 complaint... That is a difference... Is it not ???

Evan the maintenance man

IMO and in the opinion of most knowledgable professionals I dare say yes. First and foremost if you don't have a set standard and set tests to see if something meets that standard how do you know how secure something really is? The answer is of course that you don't. You just go on your opinion and ancedotal evidence which is asking for trouble in a big way.

I have defined it numerous times for you. I have given you the requirements of the standard in question. As to the definition you have found see the other thread I posted on it. It is a very weak definition since it could arguably apply to virtually any lock depending on what you compare it to, which could be anything since the definition does not cite any standard.

Kwikset is a realtively high security lock compared to a warded master padlock. So what?

Many locks of other types offer restricted keyways and tight tolerances which thus far is the only thing you have provided to backup your assertions that Best I/C is a high security lock. Virtually all other locks in the same price range offer similar security. Even under the definition you found whether or not Best is a high security lock would depend on what you compare it to since the definition cites no standard. If you compare it to other locks in it's price range what's the advantage in terms of security??? If you wish to think that it is high security fine. If you use it as such in an application that truly requires a high security lock you may well make some criminal very very happy. If you really wanted to know for sure you would pick up the phone and call a Best rep and find out. Of course you don't really want to know.

Changing the argument referred to your attempts at aserting that due to the design of most buildings what we locksmiths consider high security locks are not really needed. Which of course you didn't quote.

This is an example of why you are getting so many arguments here. You fail to pay attention to the details. If you had paid attention you would have noticed that the Locksmith Dictionary that definition came from was a product of the LIST Council and posted as a courtesy to the industry by Locksoft.

There is also posted there a peer review document that contains a revision of that particular definition and proposes that it be changed to:

high security cylinder n. a cylinder which offers a greater degree of resistance to any two or more of the following: picking, impressioning, key duplication, drilling or other forms of forcible entry

You would also note by paying attention to details that you were reading a dictionary, not a standards document. A standards document such as UL437 would define the 'greater degree of resistance' very specifically, something a dictionary should not do since standards do change over time. UL437 has changed at least 3 times in fairly recent history and most standards documents are routinely reviewed every 3 to 5 years as part of the standard process.

In 1858 the term High Security meant pin tumbler, in 1968 it meant a cylinder with a secondary locking mechanism, in 2008 it may mean something entirely different, only time will tell. BBE.

Evan wrote:

Locks have to successfully comply with the requirements of UL437 in order to be UL Listed. That is not a requirement to be a high security lock. There are also BHMA and ANSI and ASTM Standards that can qualify a lock as high security.

I gave you the most recent proposed definition for high security;

high security cylinder n. a cylinder which offers a greater degree of resistance to any two or more of the following: picking, impressioning, key duplication, drilling or other forms of forcible entry

The definition you quoted from the LIST Council Locksmith Dictionary was originally published in 1982, the latest proposal intends to reflect the higher standards expected of such things today. Locksoft has posted that dictionary for the good of the industry but has no part in writing it other than the ability to participate in the peer review as any other entity in the industry.

A standards document is required to determine any degree of resistance and a dictionary only provides definitions, not standards specifications. For standards specifications you would need to consult with ASTM, ANSI, BHMA or even UL. BBE.

high security cylinder: n. a cylinder which offers a greater degree of resistance to any two or more of the following: picking, impressioning, key duplication, drilling or other forms of forcible entry"

I agree that a dictionary definition is not a standard... However it is a definition and that seemed to be what Putyourspamhere was disputing...

In YOUR opinion do Best I/Cs stand up to picking and key duplication (I know key control depends on the keyway used) ??? If they do wouldn't they qualify as 'high security' ??? Even under the proposed new definition ???

They are NOT 'UL-437 Compliant' and I never said that they were... I asked if there was a difference between 'high security' and 'UL-437 Compliant' and I was told by PYSH that 'high security' cylinders had to meet those UL standards in order to be considered as such in his humble opinion...

Evan the maintenance man

No, and no. They're harder to pick but quite pickable, especially after being mastered (which most installations are).

And most of the key blanks aren't all that tightly controlled, even when compared to systems which enforce control by contract rather than by technology.

Best makes a better-than-average-quality cylinder, which degrades gracefully under master-keying to yield average security -- as composed to an average lock which would degrade to below-average security. That's nothing to be ashamed of, but the manufacturer would be the first to tell you it isn't a high-security system.

Higher-security, we all grant. Not high security by the definitions commonly used in the industry. You've gotta draw a line somewhere, and while I have great respect for Best's products they're at the high end of the _low_ side of that line.

I don't think that that definition is very good. If I put one spool pin in a Kwikset cylinder - that would then upgrade it to "high security" under this definition.

HIGH SECURITY LOCKS :

No, and no. They're harder to pick but quite pickable, especially after being mastered (which most installations are).

And most of the key blanks aren't all that tightly controlled, even when compared to systems which enforce control by contract rather than by technology.

Best makes a better-than-average-quality cylinder, which degrades gracefully under master-keying to yield average security -- as composed to an average lock which would degrade to below-average security. That's nothing to be ashamed of, but the manufacturer would be the first to tell you it isn't a high-security system.

Higher-security, we all grant. Not high security by the definitions commonly used in the industry. You've gotta draw a line somewhere, and while I have great respect for Best's products they're at the high end of the _low_ side of that line."

First you say that they are 'harder to pick' but then you say that they are quite pickable... Umm can't that same thing be said about a Medeco cylinder ???

" -- 'high security cylinder' : n. a cylinder which offers a greater degree of resistance to any or all of the following: picking, impressioning, key duplication, drilling or other forms of forcible entry ..."

While a Medeco cylinder would probably take much longer than a Best I/C to pick that DIFFERENCE is what makes it a 'UL-437 Compliant' cylinder...

As far as 'key control' goes you say something about technology vs. 'contract' enforced key control... Its all the same -- the lock manufacturers make the key blanks... Some are still patented and some aren't... Use a 'restricted' keyway that is 'limited distribution' and you are already 'higher security' no matter what type of lock you are using...

That definition of a 'high security cylinder' DOES NOT state specifically what 'degree' of better protection those locks must possess... I agree that perhaps it should but as it is it doesn't... Even the 'revised' definition, currently being considered and posted by BBE, doesn't define the 'degree' of resistance 'high security' must withstand... It only states that such devices must stand up against TWO of the criteria listed... No where is it defined exactly what must be kept out and for how long... 'UL-437' is a standard that locks must comply with in order to be stamped 'UL-437 approved' it doesn't state that all locks wishing to be considered 'high security' must comply with the UL standards...

If what you say is true and you truly feel that 'UL-437' is the minimum line for the 'high security' designation... Then you as an industry have not kept up with your 'details' and 'technical standards' definitions... Its simple: Until the 'Locksoft' definition is changed any lock which offers a 'greater resistance' to such attacks can be considered 'high security'... If the 'general opinion and consensus' of the industry has changed so much then change that definition of 'high security' to keep up with your 'working standards'...

Evan the maintenance man

NO. A Medeco cylinder (with sidebar) is not "quite pickable". Unless you compromise the lock in some way prior to picking. It's also important to note that it's entirely possible to make one of these locks operational with the sidebar removed. I have personally seen them installed w/o the sidebar for whatever reason.

OK. We will use the definition you have so proudly found. That said, greater resistance than what? How about greater resistance than a Medeco Sidebar? The vaugeness of the definition which you want to take adavntage of can be argued either way. Since Best I/C does not offer "greater resistance" to any of the attacks than a Medeco sidebar by DEFINITION it is NOT a high security lock. Argument over. Even using your definition of choice YOU STILL LOSE.

There is a process to do that. The rest of us are not especially inconvenienced by the time it takes because we know what NOT to use in a high security application and if in doubt will do considerable research on it instead of relying blindly on the first definition (in this case very dated) we can dig up on the web.

All this said please don't use a Best I/C in a true high security application. All you will do is demonstrate your ignorance and put property and perhaps lives at risk in the process.

This will be the last I post to you on this issue. I have come to the conclusion that talking to a houseplant would be more productive than talking to you.

Wow! What a great looking collection of keys!

Only the Best Peaks product meets the key control requirement as those blanks are patent protected. They are not that hard to pick and typically won't meet the ASTM standard of 15 minutes for Grade 6.

That may be his personal preference but not an industry consensus. BBE.

It is my personal preference that at a minimum a lock destined for a high security application meet the 437 standard. AFAIK that is actually the weakest of the US standards in use for high security locks. If I'm wrong on that I'm sure someone will let me know.

Out of curiosity what would your personal minimum requirements either in terms of individual attributes or adherence to an established standard as a whole be for a high security lock? For purposes of discussion lets ignore all requirements but security.

Personally I would require three things for a HS cylinder. 1. Drill resistance. 2. Impressioning resistance. 3. Pick resistance. With those three it would likely also offer key control and of course patented key control is one method of getting close to impressioning resistance. Hard to impression them when you don't have a blank. :-)

When I say drill resistance I d>