300 kW EV Tractor vs 400 hp Diesel

On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:47:12 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill


--
What makes you think it doesn't?
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phil hays wrote:

Plant alternate rows with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphorbia_antisyphilitica
and the steam tractor could harvest its fuel as it performs its function. Candelilla burns quite well because of its high wax content. In Mexico, peasants harvest wild candelilla and boil it to extract the wax. The leftover stalks are then burnt as fuel for boiling more candelilla.
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:57:28 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@peoplepc.com wrote:

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So sitting at a charger for 7.2 hours out of a 12 hour workday is
acceptable for a 6 minute work period across the field?
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Farmers are already paying people to sit in trucks 7.2 hours out of a 12 hour day to go through customs at the border.
Why not save money by having them sit in electric tractors in the field instead?
After all, the diesel costs $110/hour -- close to $200/hour in two years -- so there is plenty of savings to pay the tractor operator.
Anyways I'm still waiting for one single authority, any web page -- anything -- that claims that battery recharge times will not continue to drop.
. . .

Who suggested it was?
Anyway you dodged the issue.
The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or farm application.

Never heard of electrified rail? Compared to a 10 minute 400 hp tractor recharge that would be 30X more power just for one locomotive.
Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?
Bret Cahill
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Wasted money unnecessarily tying up the driver's and truck's time.
. . .

That you are dodgin' 'n dodgin'?
OK, now that you twisted my are, I admit it.
You are dodgin' 'n dodgin'.
. . .

Is there any reason to believe it isn't?
. . .

. . .

Then we'll need to start building prototypes as soon as possible to accomodate the new batteries.

"Huge?"
Science has been quantitative since Galileo
Anyway those "huge" currents are 1/30th those of an electric locomotive.
. . .

. . .

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or farm application.

Notice the dodge?

Can you tell us what you think is a pertinent difference?

Maybe you just jumped in on the wrong side and now cannot admit you were wrong.
Bret Cahill
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Bret,
You know that I appreciate your input in this newsgroup, but there is something that I think you should take to heart :
You postulate an idea here on sci.energy, with the (probable) reason to get comments and feedback from fellow newsgroup visitors.
When these people give you feedback or stipulate possible inefficiencies and problems with your idea, there is no need to attempt to prove them wrong or offend them if they simply slightly disagree with your exact thought process.
In fact, it starts to look like you simply are looking for conflict, which eventually destroys some of the good parts in your ideas.
If you cannot handle any criticism at all, maybe it is better if you just start a company that implements your idea, rather than bother sci.energy visitors with it. Then you can prove everyone wrong.
Rob
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The Russians use some conflict oriented approach to problem solving but that's generally not my first choice.
I welcome critical feedback for several reasons:
1. I'm better prepared when I approach someone who might be interested in actually doing something. Often you only get one chance.
2. I often overlook real concerns that can be corrected.
3. Others can often help me work around my concerns, i. e., your mentioning the high cycling battery.
4. I don't suffer from an idea block so there's no reason for me to persue something that won't work.
But when the responses are utterly useless as feedback, i. e., a huge current or battery is impossible or a loose wire could be a danger to life and limb, and, even worse, the disreputable issue dodging -- I have yet to get any reasoning on how the grid-battery tractor would be fundamentally different than the Volt or any other series hybrid or EV -- then there's no reason not to call a spade a spade.
The reality is there is no polite response to the suggestion that furrows cannot be circular. Everyone in every industrial country with photo magazines knows about terraced agriculture or contour plowing because of their appeal to photographers. How dumb does a poster have to be to _not_ understand that the curved furrows could continue to curve into a circle?
In those cases you just call the moron a moron.
Eventually I get bored with the white noise but as a populist I must at least initially encourage everyone to participate.
Bret Cahill
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On 7/25/08 9:35 AM, in article snipped-for-privacy@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "Bret

Do you mean to say "pursue" or "peruse" or something different?

Actually, several people have commented correctly on battery issues of importance, which you choose to naysay. You would have people believe you are very intelligent, but you aren't; you're narrow minded, refusing to do any real study/research. From these threads and others I researched, I perceive you to view yourself as an "idea man." I see much flim flam in your actions.

I doubt anyone would fail to see it, but you created a "you vs. them" issue of it anyhow. Typical flim flam. The *real* question, the one you don't like, is - Is it practical to farm in circles even when fields are extremely large rectangles. With no research you have answered "yes," because a "no" answer could be anathema to your project.
I imagine a farmer working his fields, including some hilly ridges, even plowed a few circles. Some farmers are artistic and enjoy a bit of fun, and have been known to create some clever patterns. And none of this has anything to do with supporting your plans for circular fields. Do it or don't but this still isn't the newsgroup to argue the non-issue.

Ok. Your a moron. Feel better now?

It has been obvious that you think yourself to be above the "common folk." Adopting the populist title certifies it.
What is also clear is that you do not wish to do any of your own study of the elements involved in your Grand Plan, so you blunder along hoping everything will fall into place. It rarely works.

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On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:16:29 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill

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If all that results in a net gain for the farmer, then it's hardly
wasted.
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So you are now arguing _for_ farm electrification?

Still dodging?
Here, we'll try again:
Why not save money by having them sit in electric tractors in the field instead?

. . .

Then what was all the whining about wasting time recharging out in the field?
. . .

That's your "mathematical" argument?
It's "huge?"

You don't even know what "quantitative" means.
Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?

Here, we'll try again. Those "huge" currents are 1/30th those of an electric locomotive.
This time no dodgin' 'n dodgin'.
. . .

Notice the dodge?
Here we'll try again:
The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or farm application.

The issue was the Tesla charger is for household wiring.
You tried to dodge it.
. . .

Notice the dodge?
Here we'll try again:
Can you tell us what you think is a pertinent difference?

A "huge" current is a mathematical argument?
Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?
Bret Cahill
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On 7/25/08 10:06 AM, in article snipped-for-privacy@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com, "Bret
(snip)

Same back to you...... No dodging. You raised the electric locomotive variable, so tell us: When that (diesel) electric locomotive is towing a train, how many horsepower is it generating? And tell us how many cars are in the train, and is it on the flat or is there some grade.
Then we can consider the 1/30th as HP

Only specifics are useable. What is the charging voltage AND current. Is the charge taking place via a cable or by the Tesla (inductive coupled) charger?
(snip)
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On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:06:16 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill

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Nope, I'm saying that your argument is specious.
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On 7/23/08 9:57 PM, in article snipped-for-privacy@c2g2000pra.googlegroups.com,

IMO You have been less than ethical in your posts. Why would anyone care if CBS beat you to something/
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Then start another thread.
This thread is about electric tractors. I thought I made that clear.
You need to get some medication for your attention deficit disorder.
Bret Cahill
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:21:04 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill

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If this thread is about electric tractors then why are you posting
about attention deficit disorder?
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On Jul 23, 10:57 pm, snipped-for-privacy@peoplepc.com wrote:

Diesel will not keep rising at 30%. The only reason that it is not already falling is that the lead time on making synthetic diesel from coal is long and the initial capital investment is high, so noone has taken the plunge. However, if the costs threaten to keep rising, it will be done, as there are still huge reserves of coal and someone stands to make a huge pile of money supplying cheaper energy.
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True. It will probably start increasing at 40% - 50% a year as the big wells give out lowering world production by a third in 8 years.
Far worse than the supply curve is the demand curve. China's double digit growth rate means it will pass the U. S. in as little as 6 years, probably earlier if Soros is correct about the permanent U. S. recession. Toss in India and the U. S. share of the global oil pie will plummet.
Unlike 1929 the entire country is wired. The media cannot deceive/ dumb down anywhere nearly as effectively as before. The Fed knows this and will want to keep unemployment as low as possible to keep the frog from jumping out of the pot. The dollar will get even weaker which will cause the price of oil to spiral even more.
The state of denial about the peak oil + China + the U. S. economy is understandable.
It's a bleak situation.

How long will _this_ take?
What about the interim? Are we just going to "load shed" millions of people?

It would be more cost effective to burn the coal in a power plant and power the tractors from the grid.

Even the electric tractor, much faster than coal liquification or even bio diesel, will take several years.
Bret Cahill
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:05:32 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@peoplepc.com wrote:

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How much smaller?

I've already shown you how to find the capacity of the battery you
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I didn't come up with _any_ of the numbers here except the 6 - 10 mph speeds for the tractor, numbers that have been confirmed by another poster citing figures from a government web site.
I got the 400 hp along with the 22 gallons/hr from the local Case dealership. The biggest savings come from the biggest slurpers of diesel.
Some vineyard selling overpriced wine is _not_ going to be my first customer.
And I got the 0.5 mph from some too-clever-by-half poster claiming that some farming operation would take an hour to go half a mile running the 400 hp tractor wide open.
So you are boxed in.
If you claim that an operation requires a lot of energy, you are arguing against the diesel tractor because the diesel will need to consume so much $$$ to do an equivalent amount of work it's cheaper to buy the laptop batteries.
If you claim that the operation doesn't require much diesel, then you are also arguing for electric tractors because the battery pack will be so small.
You don't need a spreadsheet to figger out the EV tractor will _always_ be more cost effective than the diesel.
Take initial cost including whatever watt hour of batteries you think it'll need. Take the time paying the tractor driver to pause 2 minutes at the end of the field
Then do the operating costs including grid costs and diesel fuel costs _for the same operation_. I know you will try to dodge this one because this is the reason diesel is no longer competitive.
Then compare the overall costs just like any sophmore IEOR student.
Bret Cahill
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Ignoring the other glaring errors in your post and concentrating only on this part, you are projecting the cost of hydrocarbon fuel to continue to spiral up and at the same rate.
A few questions for you:
1) How many oil future contracts do you own? Surely if you believe what you post here you must spend every spare penny you own in the crude futures market buying up all that you can.
2) Where is your calculation on what the price of electricity will be when everything switches over as you advocate? I haven't seen anyone address the fact that when the demand for electricity far outweighs the supply then it's price will skyrocket much much faster than hydrocarbon fuels.
3) If we are to power everything with electricity as you suggest here and elsewhere, how will the power be generated? Do you advocate building more fossil fuel power plants or do you advocate nuclear plants? Or do you have some untried, unproven type of power?
Frank

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