Propane/diesel?

Today, I saw a company that is promoting a propane/diesel fuel system. Touted to have all kinds of upsides including increased horsepower and
double fuel efficiency.
Anyone hear of this or can provide info?
Steve
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Propane augmentation of Diesel engines has been around for awhile.
The goal of these systems is similar to Nitrous Oxide augmentation of Gasoline engines: boosting power beyond normal output levels.
As with other augmentation approaches - "chipping", reprogramming, etc. - one must be cautious lest one "blow" the engine.
The claims of each type of augmentation product are based upon     1. Higher HP/Torque as demonstrated on a Dynomometer     2. Increased fuel economy when driven "conservatively"          rather than in a "performance" mode
The problems with a Propane Injection system is that the small Propane bottle has to be refilled relatively frequently and, once installed, are difficult to remove when taking the vehicle in for Warranty repairs.
The problem with "chipping" via add-on boxes that modify fuel delivery to the engine is that they're hard to remove and/or replace easily when taking the vehicle in for Warranty repairs.
Re-programming the engine's computer requires no modification to the manufacturer's wiring or mechanical systems and can be easily reset to "factory" while waiting for the Service Writer to appear and, later, to be reloaded before even leaving the Dealer's lot.
The reason that I brought up the Warranty issue is that some vehicle owners like to keep their Warranty intact rather than having a Service Writer take one look under the hood and start beaming with big dollar signs in his eyes in the full knowledge that he'll get to charge the owner big bux since the Warranty has been voided.
BTW, if you DO decide to augment your Diesel, be sure to install Exhaust Gas Temperture and Boost guages first.
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RAM³ wrote:.

Except that Nitrous Oxide adds oxidizer (free oxygen) to the engine. The propane thing adds a different fuel (hydrocarbon). It is cleaner because the ratio of hydrogen to carbon is higher. Not sure why it would be more powerful.
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Question: would you pay the money to have this done to your vehicle? A '06 Dodge 2500 Cummins Turbo with 45k miles.
Steve
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I'm driving an '03.5 Dodge 3500 Cummins Turbo and, at most, would go with a "programmer" so that I can maintain the Warranty on the Cummins.
I would most emphatically *NOT* put one of the Propane kits on *MY* truck.
If you're trying to run the engine strictly off of Propane, be advised that you'll have to pony up the *taxes* for a road vehicle yourself since most Propane dealers don't collect it. Most State Governments get pretty anal about this issue.
If you're just wanting more HP/Torque, a "programmer" has, as I said, disticnct advantages over a "hardware" approach.
If you don't care about the Warranty on your fine engine, head on over to http://www.turbodieselregister.com where you'll find a whole lot of power-boosting information from a big bunch of *serious* Cummins Hot-Rodders. <GRIN>
BTW, My truck is primarily used to tow a 7-ton fifth-wheel RV around the US West of the Big Muddy and, so far, I've not had much of a power issue even on 10% grades like the drive into Mt. Rushmore.
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I'm always open to new ideas, but I want to hear from others who have tried them rather than me being the guinea pig.
That being said, I'm in no rush to go out and start tweaking my Cummins turbo all over the place, as I think it runs fine as it is. Sure, it could get more hp, or torque, or better mileage. But, hell, at 325 hp and 610 foot pounds of torque for a truck that runs empty most of the time, I don't really think I need all that boost. I kind of grew out of that with pubertyhood, although it's still fun to hot rod in the right places occasionally.
I'm surely not in a hurry to start changing all sorts of major components.
The claims were very interesting, as I heard an extra 100hp, lots more torque, and MUCH better mileage, approaching doubling the MPG. I filed it mentally in the gas magnets/fuel additives category that the evil oil companies and government stifled because they would ruin the economy and mankind as we know it now.
I just wanted to know if anyone has done this, how it works, what's the downsides, etc.
I'm going to have to hear a lot more positives before I even consider this, and I think I've already made up my mind.
Steve
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<SNIP>

Only if you buy your propane from a retail place, like the tanks at gas stations...and you won't like the price there anyway. Propane purchased at a distibutor "as motor fuel" comes with road use taxes of all kinds included, and still generally less expensive than the retailers sell for. I used to run a 1 ton truck on propane, so have some idea of what I speak.
regards, bill
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What state are you in?
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California. Does it make a difference for federal tax? I used to buy from a distributor, and the invoice always had the taxes itemized, state, federal and sales tax all included. Bothered me a little that it appeared the calculated sales tax on top of price per gallon PLUS state & federal road use tax....double taxation!
bill
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You'll find that distributors in many other states do *not* collect road taxes on propane since the virtually all of their sales are for home or industrial use only.
While there are a very few "alternative fuel" vehicles around, it's rare to find any outside of the bigger cities due to the hours of propane dealers.
FWIW, I'm always amazed that anyone would waste their money on a propane conversion unless they could avoid the taxes.
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Don Stauffer wrote:

Mainly because the propane hits the combustion chamber and acts as a catalyst for the diesel fuel. It breaks down chemically and frees oxygen to help all the fuel burn. It's not uncommon to see 75-100 HP boost on a street diesel when using propane injection for performance.
The drawbacks are that you have a second tank to fill and YOU have to pay the highway use taxes on that fuel, If you go overboard with it you can achieve the same results as a nitrous kit (BANG).
--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York
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I don't know if it's pertinent or not but Cooper Bessemer (and likely others) have built large engines for many years that are "dual fuel". They can operate on 100% diesel or on natural gas with a diesel "pilot" injection only for ignition. They start on diesel and a valving system brings on the gas as the diesel is reduced. This is very, very old technology and is commonly used in power plants.
My knowledge came from the power plants for the Safeguard anti-missile system in the early 70's. The engines normally ran on natural gas but could go to full diesel in self-contained alert mode when all external systems were disconnected.
Don Young
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In article <DNOdncRNv8e1803VnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@posted.worldwebinternetservicesprovide inc>,

There is also a modern company that converts diesels to CNG with spark ignition, claims at least a 25% reduction in fuel costs.
Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
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I'd be real leary of those high hp and efficiency claims. Where do they get the extra oxygen to combine with the additional fuel? Dual fuel engines make sense when there's a possibility of running out of one or the other fuel keeps you up and running. One of the possibilities that intersts me is running a diesel on pilot fuel and wood gas.
Saving money on fuel is another issue. If the information that the claims are based on is only 6-12 months old, the difference in diesel fuel and propane prices might make the conversion sound real good. But propane prices have soared so much during that period that any fuel COST savings may be gone. My propane cost for home heating went from $1.54/gal to $2.27 during that period.
As far as using a pilot fuel of diesel: I have heard that it doesn't work well (or maybe not at all) with diesel engines having precombustion chambers --- direct injection only.
Pete Stanaitis -----------------
SteveB wrote:

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wrote:

Claims probably highly exaggerated as far as fuel economy goes, probably 10 - 15% better.
I have run an 89 Nissan Patrol on LPG for the last 8 years, however it is a petrol (gasoline) motor, not diesel. The motor is getting a bit sick at 385000, the last 120k on lpg.
Current fuel prices near my home are LPG 62.9c, unleaded $1.43.5, diesel $1.63.9, all per litre, multiply by 3.8 to get USgallon price.
I filled my Iseki tractor with diesel the other day, just over 16 litres or a bit more than 4 USg, cost $25.
My Patrol costs $56.60 for 90 litres of LPG, $129.15 for unleaded or if it was diesel, $147.50. Cost of using LPG instead of unleaded is about 50% as I use about 10% more LPG and drop about 10% power as well. Acceleration is not exactly mind boggling when towing about 2.5 tonnes of tractor & trailer.
I had considered getting a diesel motor from a wrecker, but with the high price of diesel fuel I have decided to keep the existing motor and run it into the ground, with #2 son doing any required maintenance. He should be able to keep it going as he has got 800+ bhp at the wheels from a GM Gen 3 V8 motor.
You should be able to get some useful info from the following 2 web sites.
http://www.dieselgasaustralia.com.au /
http://www.dieselgas.com.au/home.htm
HTH,         Alan
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