Re: Grid-Battery "Hybrid" Tractors

>Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle's engine, it's
> >technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
> >border from Mexico. =EF=BF=BDIf the tank isn't connected, customs wil se= ize
> >the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. =EF=BF=BDEven if it is connected,
> >customs may give you a hard time. =EF=BF=BDSupposedly a driver can earn = $100 a
> >trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
> >hour or so . . .
> >It's a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
> >tractors and fields.
> >A 1/2 mile long wire 10 =EF=BF=BD- 20 feet above the ground only needs t= o be
> >on one end of a quarter square. =EF=BF=BDA fast discharge battery can be
> >relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
> >round trip back to the wire. =EF=BF=BDAn on board ICE or battery trailer= could
> >be used to relocate the tractor any distance.
> >As agriculture become more automated there won't be any reason for
> >anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
> >lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.
> What sort of battery charges in a minute or two?
One with lots of small cells. The smaller the cells, the faster the
charging time.
And where would all
> that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?
The grid: Coal fired plants, nukes, PV, dish Stirling, geo thermal,
wind . . . whatever they got that will put out some juice. Polar
bears, tropical frogs and hurricanes are not the issue.
Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:
Plug in hybrids can go 40 miles between charges. A tractor may
require 20X higher hp than a Volt but a tractor only needs to go 1
mile between charges.
=EF=BF=BDHow much power to recharge in two minutes?
If a 400 hp articulated tractor moves 10 mph it's only running 6
minutes between charges and will require 3X 400 hp or ~ 1 MW -- 1/6th
the juice drawn by an electric locomotive.
In 4 years diesel will be $15 / gallon and electrification will amount
to hundreds of dollars/hour in savings, much more money than necessary
to hire someone willing to sit at the end of the field for a few
minutes reading a magazine charging up between furrows.
=EF=BF=BDWhat would the voltage have to be to keep the
> =EF=BF=BDwire losses reasonable?
It's only a half mile so a fat high current low voltage wire might be
desirable for safety reasons.
=EF=BF=BDHow much do the batteries weigh?
Regardless of the size, from the articulated tractor sucking down 22
gallons of diesel/hour [$110/hr and spiraling] to a 15 hp garden
tractor, the battery + electric motor system will always have a higher
specific power than any IC engine + fuel tank system.
The reason is a tractor just doesn't need to go very far to work a
field.
=EF=BF=BDHow much do the batteries cost?
Same as the batteries in plug in hybrids which require an even larger
battery / hp.
Ideas are cheap, as long as you ignore reality.
In as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will give out rather
quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid. On top
of that China seems to have a permanent double digit growth rate
while, according to Soros, the U. S. will be in a decades long
recession so the size of China's economy will surpass America's in as
little as 6 years. This will leave the great majority of Americans to
try to get by on a couple percent of the oil we consume today.
So here are 3 plausible scenarios:
1. electrify the fields & tractors, or,
2. return to plowing fields with oxen, or,
3. starve.
If you cannot come up with any ideas, cheap or otherwise, for a
plausible 4th scenario then I say we electrify the fields.
Bret Cahill
"Every idea is the product of a single mind."
-- Bishop Richard Cumberland
Reply to
Bret Cahill
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And the tractor goes one mile.
Or 1/2 mile.
Recharge time is two orders of magnitude less than the Volt.
Bret Cahill
Reply to
Bret Cahill
Your ideas are excellent. Take them to one of the agriculture-related newsgroups, where people will be grateful for your brilliant suggestions. I'm sure all the farmers in the USA will be cutting spiral rows next season.
John
Reply to
John Larkin
The Issue has _always been_ liquid fuel costs.
There is no reason to electrify the farms if diesel wasn't spiraling.
=2E . .
And it "came out" in 6 - 10 minutes.
The tractor is moving 6 - 10 mph.
Alternatively, if the tractor is moving slowly, then it won't require 400 hp, and you'll _still_ have a short charging time.
You keep trying to dodge the fundamental reason this is a better application of batteries than the wildly popular plug in hybrids:
Unlike EVs or plug ins the tractor never goes very far from the charger.
The batteries can therefore be small and cheap and have short charging times.
And we haven't gotten to the favorable torque/rpm curve of electric motors which allows a much smaller hp motor.
Bret Cahill
Reply to
BretCahill
It's more likely that we will move to no-till agriculture.
Reply to
Rob Dekker
Lots of things are practical if yoy kill off about 96% of the population first.
John
Reply to
John Larkin
Didn't somebody already invent gears?
John
Reply to
John Larkin
The boiler isn't a pressurized tank. It's a firetube flash boiler. It can vent if it fails, but it doesn't have sufficient pressurized volume to explode. The "boiler explosion" scenario was just one of several dishonest ploys to dismiss steam technology.
Reply to
Mark Thorson
You dodged the issue:
Paying $100 billion a year for diesel for agriculture will _starve_ the population.
Bret Cahill
Reply to
BretCahill
We need applied math folk for the final spreadsheet work. No reason to piss 'em off.
Bret Cahill
Reply to
BretCahill
Is that $100b number for the US, or for the whole world?
John
Reply to
John Larkin
_You_ not "we."
The original issue was _always_ the $100 billion wasted on diesel.
Bret Cahill
Reply to
BretCahill
't think that full-electric tractors are going to show up
I have no problems with a _small_ ICE on the tractor.
rs, and higher in efficiency than gasoline cars.
And?
high power; near the most efficient RPM possible).
These seem to be more a fortiori arguments for electrifying the farm.
s to provide high-power for an entire work-day out in the
Sounds like the perfect application for a high low end torque electric motor.
You mean the diesel tank that dumps $300/hour down the drain?
THAT diesel tank?
back-of-the-envelope calculations, we need a 6-10X
n be matched with equal power and equal weight.
But the tractor only needs a battery that'll last a few minutes.
Which must run _much_ longer times between charging than the tractor.
electric for a while.
They have a _better_ chance because they never go very far.
in diesel-electric locomotives) does save fuel, increases
OK, then we're ready to install a wire and electrify the farm!
Kudos for Cat!
There are no negative economies of scale here.
battery tech.
X per work day.
What other choice does he have?
Running diesel from Mexico 20X times/day?
And even _that_ ridiculous solution cannot last long because the governors of the border estados have started going to Mexico City to whine that they cannot handle the demand caused by gringo farmers.
It's a whole lot easier and more cost effective to just go electric.
This diesel nonsense is for the birds.
Bret Cahill
Reply to
BretCahill
Who wastes $100b a year on diesel?
John
Reply to
John Larkin
Hundreds of feet of "fire tube" that needs to be cleaned every time you try to burn biomass.
"Still, it's easy to see why steam failed. When you bought a Doble, you got a list of things your chauffeur was supposed to do every week. Nobody would stand for weekly maintenance these days. Plus, you've got to carry steam oil, water and gasoline."
And that's burning the _clean_ stuff.
Bret Cahill
Reply to
BretCahill
Hopefully.
Economies of scale make the power plant much safer.
Bret Cahill
Reply to
BretCahill
....
Not sure why you change the topic.
My remark was serious : Farmers in the United States already use no-till methods on 37 percent of the nation's cropland. It's likely to increase, since there are many benefits. Only one of these benefits is less fuel needed (since no plowing is done).
Rob
Reply to
Rob Dekker
Reply to
John Fields
Reply to
John Fields
>> >> >Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast >> >> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue. >> >> >> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller. >> >> >> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge. >> >> >> >This should be common knowledge. >> >> >> >Bret Cahill >> >> >> Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery. >> >> >> Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity. >> >> Consider charging it in one minute. >> >> >> See the problem? >> >> >No, at least nothing compared to the problem of paying $30 billion a >> >year -- soon to be $100 billion/yr -- for diesel used in agriculture. >> >> --- >> Avoiding the issue by changing the subject, are we??? > >_You_ not "we." > >The original issue was _always_ the $100 billion wasted on diesel.
Reply to
John Fields

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