Re: Grid-Battery "Hybrid" Tractors

An AC induction motor exhibits a fairly flat torque curve from something like 10% of design RPMs at 50/60 Hz, and then is usually shown as decreasing, because, although motors can be driven by PWM to several times their rated speed, it is not usually recommended (or feasible) to increase the voltage accordingly (as a VF drive does). But there is nothing "magic" about 60 Hz as a limit for the magnetics, and it is possible to design motors that run up to at least 400 Hz. They are typically very high RPM, but with enough poles, it is possible to boost the HP of a motor by several times, using lower voltage windings and running at least up to 150 Hz. You can get 2 or three times the HP from the same size motor. This is very important for highway vehicles, where the weight and size of the motor contribute a lot to fuel economy and performance, but probably not as much for a tractor, where additional weight might be a good thing.

Since large induction motors are typically 92 to 95% efficient, a 75 kW 100 HP motor will produce something like 5000 watts of heat, which is removed by means of self-contained fans. A motor specially designed to be overdriven might be even more efficient, although there is a limit where magnetic losses take over. The good thing about electric motors is that they consume no power when they are idle, and their losses are at worst a percentage of the actual output power, and may even be less when lightly loaded. Losses are proportional to I^2, while torque is proportional to I. They can also be "pushed" to 2 or 3 times their nameplate ratings for short periods of time, so you can often get by with a smaller motor if your power needs are intermittent.

So the transmission requirements are mostly to provide the needed torque, and then the motor speed can be adjusted as needed. Large tractors probably have trannies with 10 or 15 speeds or more, while an electric motor might require only 3 or 4. This would be another saving. VF drives are so efficient and inexpensive now, that any other motor controller is just about unthinkable. And you can run a VF drive on 720 VDC directly, so it is ideally suited to a battery pack for use when transferring from one power source to another. This would require much less power than the tractor is actually rated for, so the battery pack could be quite small.

Paul

Reply to
Paul E. Schoen
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I think we are really just arguing about the mythic lightweight super capacity battery pack and or the relative cost of the massive central pivot power supply, not to mentin the $AUSX00,000 is going to charge you to bring in an 11Kv feed.

Reply to
terryc

Conflicts with other stuff I've read claiming 110%.

Reply to
terryc

for small applications, although even these would

(Zebra's, sodium/sulfur etc) are excellent :

applications.

The site give the specs for a Zebra battery at 90 Wh/kg. The 300 kWh tractor used as an example in the thread would require well over 7000 pounds of those batteries, which would occupy over 78 cubic feet. That volume computation is based on the example given of a 195 kg Zebra at .13 cubic meter. See

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The battery operating temperature is 250 C and must be kept under charge when not in use to keep the temperature there. If you allow it to cool, it can take up to 2 days to get it up to temperature again before you can use it.

The farmer who has a tractor powered by this type of battery is going to have one helluva job removing 7333 pounds of batteries and hauling that to the recycler, and another helluva job of installing the 7000 plus pounds of replacement batteries.

I did not find recharge time, but it will certainly cut into the farmer's productivity, as compared to diesel.

Based on what is posted on the Wiki site and the thread here, the idea that this technology, as it is today, can be a practical alternative to diesel in tractors is totally ludicrous. And that is without considering the purchase price of the batteries and charging equipment, or the cost of installing the charging equipment.

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

Paul,

On behalf of sci.energy readers, THANKS for a great overview of electric motor basics. Very seldom do we see postings of this quality, and I at least very much appreciate that.

Thanks again

Rob

Reply to
Rob Dekker

Reply to
John Fields

Unless the thing was 8 feet in diameter (which would have its own problems) you'd need kiloamps of coil current and megagauss field strengths to get the kind of torque a tractor wheel would need.

This guy is as ignorant of electrical and mechanical engineering as he is of farming.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

It always impresses me that a lot of people participate in specialty newsgroups, and have opinions about technology and public policy, without making any effort to read a few books and understand the basics of what's actually going on, or the quantitative limits of what's possible.

My wife wanted me to put a windmill on our roof to make our own electricity.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

See what happens following Bret's threads......?

Reply to
DB

READ THIS:

gned for small applications, although even these would

es (Zebra's, sodium/sulfur etc) are excellent :

mall applications.

_What_ example?

_My_ example was for the tractor crossing the field in the typical 6 -

10 minutes. (See above.) The 6 - 10 mph typical tractor speed figure has been confirmed by other posters citing government and industry web sites.

A 400 hp tractor running wide open moving at 0.5 mph would require several months to work one square mile and, in 6 years, at the present rate of spiraling fuel costs, run up a debt of a half a million dollars just for the diesel.

The 0.5 mph strawman was generated by a useful idiot who unwittingly helped me build the case for grid-battery.

Almost all field operations allow the tractor to recharge every 6 - 10 minutes requiring only 10 - 30 kW hrs/charge.

30 kW-hr/(0.09 kW-hr/kg) =3D 733 lbs. The overall drive train will be lighter than the diesel + fuel tank.

I've mentioned this several times and everyone dodges this issue:

Grid battery farm electrification is possible with low density energy storge devices, an advantage not shared by road hybrids or EVs.

Any argument for EVs or hybrid electric is, a fortiori, an argument for grid-battery tractors.

And, _no_ pausing at the end of the field to recharge is _not_ a big issue.

Right now farmers are paying truck drivers $100/trip to run 8 peso/ litre diesel from Mexico at a savings of only 40% over U. S. prices. This ties up truck and driver time.

Instead of paying a truck driver to sit in line at the border why not pay a tractor driver to sit at the end of the field?

At least you don't getting pestered by customs agents and junk food peddlers sitting out at the edge of a field.

The hay guys seem to move fast -- they get across the field in 2 minutes -- but the rest spend 15 minutes each lap screwing around at the end of the field lining up their lasers or whatever anyway.

Bret Cahill

Reply to
BretCahill

You have to be kidding. Do you think farmers work almost every waking moment during planting season because they like the hours? Patience is in short supply during the spring. Any delay due to breakdowns and such drives them nuts. The goal is to keep the planters moving until the job is done. Planting season starts around April 10 or so in my area of Nebraska. Things generally get wrapped up by the second or third week in May.

Dean

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Reply to
Dean Hoffman

=EF=BF=BDDo you think farmers work almost every

Electric motors are more reliable than diesel.

The field needs to be automated so that the machinery runs 24/7 with lasers and GPS. Just put in the crop's CD and the coordinates of the field.

in my area of Nebraska.

For places with only one or 2 seasons, time is less critical.

When the price of diesel gets high enough it'll be cheaper to run 2 electric tractors and pay two drivers than one diesel.

Bret Cahill

Reply to
BretCahill

=EF=BF=BDDo you think farmers work almost every

in my area of Nebraska.

Instead of one 700 lb battery that stays in the tractor, two 350 lb batteries would be cantilevered off both sides of the tractor with a wire on both ends of the field. The batteries have a verticle rod mounted on top to contact the wire.

When the tractor reaches the right hand U turn end of the field the left outrigger scoops up a recharged battery. After the U turn the discharged battery is dropped off for charging and can be picked up on the next lap.

The right side battery is swapped out at the other end of the field when the left hand U turn is made.

The batteries only last a few weeks and are changed - recycled like motor oil.

Battery cost is about twice grid cost -- the combination is just now about equal to the cost of diesel -- so in the long run it might be cheaper to trolly wire the entire field or go with the super pivot.

There are all kinds of farm situations and there will be all kinds of solutions.

The original single battery single wire idea where the driver waits at the end of the field for a recharge was the absolute cheapest easiest electric tractor to prototype and demonstrate. It was just a way to get a foot into the extension center door.

Bret Cahill

Reply to
BretCahill

for small applications, although even these would

(Zebra's, sodium/sulfur etc) are excellent :

applications.

Sorry for the mis-quote. I DID find a manufacturers folder that reports 119 kWh/kg (better than NiMH) :

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MES DEA is constantly improving their batteries, and they are still quite far from the theoretical limit, so we should see higher numbers in the future. Thanks for the correction

..

I agree. Although ludicrous is a big word, 'currently unrealistic' is certainly applicable.

Batteries are nice for small tractors for lawnmowers etc (replacing noisy, inefficient 2-tact motors), but not for 400 hp diesel workhorses in the big fields.

Electric drive (like the Caterpillar tractor mentioned earlier) make much more sense currently for efficiency and torque improvements on big-ass farm equipment.

Rob

Reply to
Rob Dekker

Energy density just isn't a factor when you can recharge or swap out batteries several times/hr.

. . .

sense currently for efficiency and torque

We really need a tractor pull to show a 350 lb battery just isn't a big deal.

Barring some breakthroughs in algae, diesel will soon be prohibitively expensive, with _any_ kind of drive. Why risk the food supply when there is such an effort to go EV or plug in anyway?

The EV and plug in industry will require much more metal and other materials for their batteries than agriculture will ever use.

And if battery costs don't drop very much, then there's always straight grid, either a lot of trolly wires or something based on a pivot irrigation system.

Bret Cahill

Reply to
BretCahill

sense currently for efficiency and torque

It is not 350 pounds. Using the numbers posted in the thread (300kWh equivalent tractor, 90Wh/kg battery) it is over *7333* pounds of batteries. Energy density most certainly is a huge factor, if those numbers you & Rob have been posting are accurate.

A 350 pound Zebra battery would yield 14318 Wh. That is the equivalent of 19 horsepower - way too small for a tractor on a farm.

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

ch more sense currently for efficiency and torque

It's more like 300 lbs max.

What part of "frequent recharge" do you NOT unnerstand?

A 400 hp tractor only needs a couple of gallons to get across a field.

Not that it matters but now he's saying 120 w- hr / kg.

For _what _ operation?

What part of "frequent recharge" do you NOT unnerstand?

Now everyone knows yer an idiot. Energy ain't power.

Bret Cahill

Reply to
Bret Cahill

more sense currently for efficiency and torque

It's more like 300 lbs max.

What part of "frequent recharge" do you NOT unnerstand?

A 400 hp tractor only needs a couple of gallons to get across a field.

Not that it matters but now he's saying 120 w- hr / kg.

For _what _ operation?

What part of "frequent recharge" do you NOT unnerstand?

Now everyone knows yer an idiot. Energy ain't power.

Bret Cahill

Reply to
Rob Dekker

SINCE ENERGY DENSITY ISN'T SUCH A BIG DEAL, WHAT ABOUT CAPS?

Sorry, no pun intended. My keyboard made an honest mistake.

Anyway, this would need to be spread sheeted to optimize and to determine competitiveness but several wires over the field could recharge multi farad capacitors in seconds.

Sure the caps would weigh more than batteries but they'ld last forever . . .

Bret Cahill

Reply to
Bret Cahill

Pity about the cost of all that wiring and the caps.

Biodiesel makes a hell of a lot more sense.

Nope, they dont.

Reply to
Rod Speed

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