simple heat transfer solution

Request help with a relatively simple heat transfer situation.
hollow cylinder, 300W heater inside, the outside cylinder surface is
held at a fixed temp. fixed width insulating supports on either end (imagine ceramic bushings)
how to calculate bushing thickness to get a known temp drop at the outside surface of the bushings?
reply direct if possible
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 05:14:19 GMT, clay

This was titled a Simple Heat Transfer Solution. It is in fact, an impossible question to answer well, because it is not well enough defined.
Let me suppose that I can replace this scenario with a solid conductive rod at a known temperature, externally supported by a ceramic bush of width x inch and thickness y inches mounted on an an insulated surface. The ceramic's thermal conductivity is ? and the insulating mounting surface has a thermal conductivity of ?? and temperature ???
Brian W
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040605070902070709050202 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Brian Whatcott wrote:

Brian,
I was "hoping" for a simple conduction solution. Using Fouriers formula. I don't understand how to apply the "q" from the heater. Ideally we are trying to use the bushings as the insulators. Your simplified solution will work I think. In other words, the shaft is hot (known temp) and the q is known, using known k values for the bushings. What bushing thickness (y inches) gives what temp on the outside surface of the bushing.
--------------040605070902070709050202 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> <title></title> </head> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> <br> <br> Brian Whatcott wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite" cite=" snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com"> <pre wrap="">On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 05:14:19 GMT, clay <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:a snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net">&lt;a snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net&gt;</a> wrote:
</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Request help with a relatively simple heat transfer situation.
hollow cylinder, 300W heater inside, the outside cylinder surface is held at a fixed temp. fixed width insulating supports on either end (imagine ceramic bushings)
how to calculate bushing thickness to get a known temp drop at the outside surface of the bushings?
reply direct if possible
</pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->This was titled a Simple Heat Transfer Solution. It is in fact, an impossible question to answer well, because it is not well enough defined.
Let me suppose that I can replace this scenario with a solid conductive rod at a known temperature, externally supported by a ceramic bush of width x inch and thickness y inches mounted on an an insulated surface. The ceramic's thermal conductivity is ? and the insulating mounting surface has a thermal conductivity of ?? and temperature ???
Brian W
</pre> </blockquote> Brian,<br> <br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I was "hoping" for a simple conduction solution. Using Fouriers formula. I don't understand how to apply the "q" from the heater. Ideally we are trying to use the bushings as the insulators. Your simplified solution will work I think.&nbsp; In other words, the shaft is hot (known temp) and&nbsp; the q is known, using known k values for the bushings. What bushing thickness (y inches) gives what temp on the outside surface of the bushing. <br> <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72"> </pre> </body> </html>
--------------040605070902070709050202--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:31:57 GMT, clay

An electrical analogy will help you, I hope. You have a rod at a known potential, fixed to a substrate by two resistors of known value. What is the potential of the substrate at the point of connection?
You don't know, because you have not specified the effective resistance of the substrate. So the potential could be ground, or the rod potential, or somewhere in between. To put it in temperature terms: If the place that the bushings touch is at ambient temperature, then the bushings could be at ambient temperature (if the mounting surface is conductive, or the bushings could be at rod temperature if the mounting surface is very much more insulating than the bushings.
Brian W
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090002040607050001060104 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Brian Whatcott wrote:

Ok. now I think I understand. The substrate (aluminum) is at room temp, 70F. So how to determine the ideal bushing thickness? Is this at all similar to determining ideal insulation thickness for a pipe?
--------------090002040607050001060104 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> <title></title> </head> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> <br> <br> Brian Whatcott wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite" cite=" snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com"> <pre wrap="">On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:31:57 GMT, clay <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:a snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net">&lt;a snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net&gt;</a> wrote:
</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> Brian Whatcott wrote:
</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 05:14:19 GMT, clay <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:a snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net">&lt;a snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net&gt;</a> wrote:
</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Request help with a relatively simple heat transfer situation.
hollow cylinder, 300W heater inside, the outside cylinder surface is held at a fixed temp. fixed width insulating supports on either end (imagine ceramic bushings)
how to calculate bushing thickness to get a known temp drop at the outside surface of the bushings?
reply direct if possible
</pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">This was titled a Simple Heat Transfer Solution. It is in fact, an impossible question to answer well, because it is not well enough defined.
Let me suppose that I can replace this scenario with a solid conductive rod at a known temperature, externally supported by a ceramic bush of width x inch and thickness y inches mounted on an an insulated surface. The ceramic's thermal conductivity is ? and the insulating mounting surface has a thermal conductivity of ?? and temperature ???
Brian W
</pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">Brian,
I was "hoping" for a simple conduction solution. Using Fouriers formula. I don't understand how to apply the "q" from the heater. Ideally we are trying to use the bushings as the insulators. Your simplified solution will work I think. In other words, the shaft is hot (known temp) and the q is known, using known k values for the bushings. What bushing thickness (y inches) gives what temp on the outside surface of the bushing. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> An electrical analogy will help you, I hope. You have a rod at a known potential, fixed to a substrate by two resistors of known value. What is the potential of the substrate at the point of connection?
You don't know, because you have not specified the effective resistance of the substrate. So the potential could be ground, or the rod potential, or somewhere in between. To put it in temperature terms: If the place that the bushings touch is at ambient temperature, then the bushings could be at ambient temperature (if the mounting surface is conductive, or the bushings could be at rod temperature if the mounting surface is very much more insulating than the bushings.
Brian W</pre> </blockquote> <br> Ok. now I think I understand. The substrate (aluminum) is at room temp, 70F. So how to determine the ideal bushing thickness? Is this at all similar to determining ideal insulation thickness for a pipe? <br> <br> <br> </body> </html>
--------------090002040607050001060104--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It is known that too much insulation on slender pipes can increase the heat lost.
This could be analogous, if the bushings are sinking heat all around their circumference. Are they? If they only touch the substrate at one radius, then greater thickness represents lowered heat loss.
But what is ideal for you? 1) Minimizing heat lost through ceramic bushes to the substrate? 2) Minimizing heat lost from the cylindrical surface at the air boundary? 3) minimizing the sum of these losses? 4) Minimizing trhe capital cost of the device? 5) Minimizing the running cost? Minimizing the sum of these two?
Don't have enough grasp of your configuration and constraints to be useful, I'm afraid.
Brian W
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080308000101060302030507 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Brian,
I thought this would be simple.... The substrate is aluminum. The shaft is heated internally to a measured outside (O.D) temperature. The shaft is mounted/supported by two ceramic (or other material) insulators. The insulators are flat on the bottom and bolted down to a flat aluminum plate. Just like a horizontal hot water tank, resting on two concrete blocks.
Objective. Find out what temperature the substrate is going to be at a given thickness of the ceramic support bushing. If I increase the thickness of the insulating ceramic (or whatever material it is) how much is the temp of the substrate going to drop?
Brian Whatcott wrote:

--
a_design
product design & engineering
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Hello Clay
You can look at this two ways, a cylinder with a hot inner surface, and a cool outer, Or as a disk with a hot inner and cold outer surface....
Either way the edge conditions will be to important to be ignored, and will take the annualises into FEA territory.
You probably don't have good enough data to make an FEA model, and simple model assumptions will not give an accurate answer.
I think you will need to do some experimenting.
Things like whether the tube sits on the insulator or the insulator fits inside, and how the air flows round the ends outside will have a major affect.
-- Jonathan
Barnes's theorem; for every foolproof device there is a fool greater than the proof.
To reply remove AT
wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060606080806090103020303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jonathan,
This is pretty basic chapter one heat transfer isn't it, or not? The cylinder is a machined shaft. The bushing/isolator is a machined bore. The cylinder ends are press fit into the insulator bore.
clay
Jonathan Barnes wrote:

--
a_design
product design & engineering
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I have got a deal of pleasure out of this heat transfer puzzle. Mostly because you keep telling us how simple and basic it is....
Anyway, a 300 watt heater in a tube could put the surface temperature somewhere between 40 degC and 300 degC depending.
You mentioned you want to minimize temperature rise of the substrate, so here's the answers you were looking for:
1) Make the ceramic standoffs as long as possible.
2) Make their transverse cross section as small as possible, consistent with the strength needed.
3) Radiation will heat the substrate - somewhere between 3 and 30 degrees, possibly, so there's no sense in reducing the conducted heat flux at the standoff's base to less than the radiative flux heating the surface away from the ceramic standoff.
4) If radiative heating is excessive, make the opposed surfaces reflective or white. Failing an acceptable reduction in sub strate temperature, increase the standoff distance.
5) Maintain good airpaths round the tube and around the standoffs for convective cooling. Perforate the ceramic for enhanced air cooling as needed.
Regards
Brian
On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 00:39:57 GMT, clay

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.