Afterburners

snipped-for-privacy@home.now (Roy) wrote in


The English Electric (later BAe)Lightning, known as the frightening by new pilots, was an interesting plane. Its two engines where actually 'over and under' and one behind the other so giving two engines in the x section of 1. In clean configuration could climb vertical and exceed mach without AB, with AB there was some dispute - mach 2 was the official speed but the russians listed it as 2.4. Was the the first 'supercruise' fighter, broke most speed records in the late fifties and still holds some time to height records. As a kid growing up in Scotland I used to see them taking off to intercept Russians, they roll off three abreast, stay low over the runway with gear up and when up to speed went vertical with Ab on. All the grass was dead for about two hundred yards around the end of the runway from the unburnt fuel. traing aircraft had a side by side cockpit like the training hunters.. Still some flying in South Africa.
The problem with the lightning was it had less than 800 miles fuel so the pilots where practicing fuel management even before it got off the ground and an interception flight needed refueling every 30 minuites.
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| The English Electric (later BAe)Lightning, known as the frightening by | new pilots, was an interesting plane. Its two engines where actually | 'over and under' and one behind the other so giving two engines in the x | section of 1. In clean configuration could climb vertical and exceed mach | without AB, with AB there was some dispute - mach 2 was the official | speed but the russians listed it as 2.4. Was the the first 'supercruise' | fighter, broke most speed records in the late fifties and still holds | some time to height records.
If I recall properly, the F-4 "has" a classified top speed. Sort of, I've learned. The truth of the matter is that the airplane will run out of gas way before it finishes accelerating. There's lots of rocks with engines attached, and that one was so impressive that when the US started phasing them out, they sold the stripped airframes to the Israelis who refitted them their way, making them way better than the original ones, and likely a little more fuel efficient. It was kinda weird when I was stationed in MCAS Cherry Point, NC where the NARF (now NADEP) overhauled F-4's, C-130's, AV-8's, and CH-47's. You'd see halves of aircraft rolling around the depot when I had reason to be over there. Seeing the F4 fuselages roll by with no wings on it was almost sad. I really like that plane, and knowing it was getting stripped for spares helped me realize the depot was making a living providing the rest of the world with spare parts, it wasn't like there was many left in the US inventory.
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On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 02:57:51 GMT, "carl mciver"

snip
IMHO whats worse at least for me wa we had what was called ABDR (Aircraft Battle Damage Repair) of which at our unit I was NCOIC. It was our mission to be able to do what ever was necessary to any battle damaged aircraft just to milk one more sortie out of it just in case.......We had lots of practice on 55 gal drums, old car bodies, and old removed aircraft part, but never a real aircraft except at school where we used F-105 and T-33's for battle damaged aircraft, which they would literallay chop, nbow and punch holes through which we would have to evaluate and repair somehow or other, in other words do a McGiver if necessary just make it fly and drop bombs etc.....After much complaining we got an ABDR aircraft .......which turned out to be an F-4C which was destined for the boneyard anyhow, as all units were converting over to F-16 or other aircraft then anyhow so F-4's were a dime a dozen.....I for the life of me could not bring myself to go out there with a fire axe and pick and punch holes in that aircraft........The F-4 meant a great deal to me and it wa like taking a club to your buddy.......We managed to turn the aircraft in with just some minor damages to it, and got an A-7 in its place.........
Now all those RF-4C and F-4 (x)'s are being converted to drones and shot down on a pretty routine schedule at Edwards, and Tyndoll AFB.....At least it went down doing what it was meant to do and that was fly and train folks, and not wind up as a soda can or aluminum skillet......
I had an article on an Israel AF project. They were trying to see if they could remove the keel section and fit in one single large engine inplace of the two GE's........Dunno if they wver got anywhere with it, but that would have had to be a major undertaking.
=============================================Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked! "The original frugal ponder" ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>
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carl mciver wrote:.

There are so many aspects of this "top speed" issue that for a fighter plane it is almost a meaningless question. Another gotcha on the F-4 was airframe heating.
One big factor is that ever since 20s, the max speed of a plane depends on altitude in complex ways, and some planes are faster at certain altitudes, others at other altitudes. This is true whether plane is jet or prop. Now, a fighter is best if its performance peaks at a useful altitude, where a lot of operations occur, but this is often not the case.
It is interesting that the top speed in an absolute sense- fastest it will go at any altitude- has seemed to have peaked, and most new fighters are not as fast in such a "top speed" as earlier aircraft. There used to be several planes with max speed in the M2.5-2.9 region, while most newer ones are in the 2.0-2.5 region.
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Eric R Snow wrote:

I was down at the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton here in the UK a couple of months ago and got to look over one of the prototype Concordes. The wing is sufficiently low for you to be able to stick your head more or less into the rear of the Olympus engines. I was looking at this strange ring of what looked like standard half-inch (15mm over here) copper pipe with holes drilled in it when it occurred to me that this thing was an afterburner. Looked as if it had been installed by a plumber.
jd
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argv[0] limited (Asterisk implementation & consultancy)
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Eric R Snow wrote:

Hmmm ... I wonder why the contrail disappeared. With all that much more fuel being burned and water vapor being created, I would think that the contrail would get even bigger. Anybody know? Bob
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In the early '70's, me and the buds used to go down to Boeing Field, sneak in next to 13R (31L), get drunk and wait for 747s to land. We were Less than 50' off the runway in the scrub. VERY impressive. JR Dweller in the cellar
Eric R Snow wrote:

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I was on board the USS ENTERPRISE during the Viet-Nam war. One miserably hot night in the Tonkin Gulf, a sailor found a "cool" place to sleep. Most of the flight deck is surrounded by catwalks. But the areas where there are no catwalks are protected by safety nets to catch people who fall off the edge of the flight deck and save them from a rather unpleasant swim. One such area is the forward edge of the deck. Our hero slipped down over the deck edge and sacked out in the net. He was sleeping real good when, about 2 AM, the ship started to launch F-4's. Other than the afterburners giving him a haircut that exceeded Marine Corps specs, he didn't end up toooo much the worse for wear....
Jerry
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| | I was on board the USS ENTERPRISE during the Viet-Nam war. One miserably | hot night in the Tonkin Gulf, a sailor found a "cool" place to sleep. Most | of the flight deck is surrounded by catwalks. But the areas where there are | no catwalks are protected by safety nets to catch people who fall off the | edge of the flight deck and save them from a rather unpleasant swim. One | such area is the forward edge of the deck. Our hero slipped down over the | deck edge and sacked out in the net. He was sleeping real good when, about | 2 AM, the ship started to launch F-4's. Other than the afterburners giving | him a haircut that exceeded Marine Corps specs, he didn't end up toooo much | the worse for wear.... | | Jerry
Oh, dat's funny rot there fer sure! Thanks for the laugh. I wonder if they could smell the burning hair over the rest of the flight deck since the ship was turned into the wind? Just thinking about _that_ makes me laugh again!
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On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 04:30:26 GMT, "Jerry Foster"
."

While on a tincan in that era that plane guarded those bird farms I remember the ABs on launch-pretty impressive sight for a farm kid. I remember while on the bridge one night on the 12 to 4 the ood getting via semaphore the order for plane guard and having to remember which way to manuver in the dark (no running lights) in a 8 ship formation without getting runover... that collage kid was sweating bullets but did fine.. We could hardly keep up on launch with a nuke carrier man they were fast.
DE
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