Oh Bu**er! (Transports of delight)

I'd booked a Transit"35 cwt" pickup for today to go up to Scotland to collect my new lathe, 29 cwt of it. I phoned one hire firm & booked a similar sized Toyota pickup, after
they assure me it would carry 2 tonnes. Thought I'd better call in in person & check what it really would carry, found out they really didn't have a clue! Eventually they found a sales brochure, which said 1240 Kg :-( No apology, they really didn't seem to care very much. They do care about how shiny their vehicles are, though! Tried the opposition, they at least were more interested. I explained exactly what I wanted to do, They took the trouble to send the vehicle to the weighbridge, & we decided it was just about legal for me on my own & the machine, plus a flask of coffee & a bag of butties & a full tank of diesel. Picked it up yesterday for an early start today, brand newTransit with 40 miles on the clock. I was a bit disappointed at how high the platform is, but got everything organised. Then had a good look at the body & how the machine would sit etc. The floor is plywood, no more than 3/4" thick, with rather skimpy folded steel channel cross members. I worked out how to position the lathe so that the weight would be tranferred pretty directly to the chassis via the channels. Well, not diectly to the chassis, the steel cross members sit on an aluminium extrusion about 6" tall which sits on top of the chassis. Having gone this far I reassured myself that it would be all right really. Got up at 5.15 am for my planned 6am start, went out with a torch for another look. Took the decision then that No! I wasn't going to drive 230 miles to load the machine & decide it was unsafe, unload it & drive back empty, or to come back loaded & worry about it all the way. I didn't fancy being stuck at the side of the motorway with a 1 1/2 ton lathe sitting on a collapsing body (or worse). Sixty quid down the drain, I'll have to find another way to do it :-(
Stroke of luck between typing this & sending it, a customer with a Discovery rang, it looks as though we may be able to sort something out with him & a trailer, he's coming to see me this afternoon. The day is looking better already ;-)
Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Tim Leech wrote:

<snip>
<snip>
I reckon Brunel would have risked it....!!!!!!!
--
.\.\-i-k-e...

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:15:51 -0600, "Michael Fudge"

I would probably have risked it a few years ago. I'm a few years older now than Brunel ever was <G>
Cheers Tim
Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

If you'd have left the bag of butties of the manifest it would have been OK. -- Regards,
John Stevenson Nottingham, England.
Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk /
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:30:51 +0000, John Stevenson

I'd already discounted them, I reckoned I'd have eaten most of them before setting off back <G>
Cheers Tim
Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

"Can I use your bog? It's a safety issue."
--
Nigel

When the only tools you have are a Bridgeport, a CNC Taig Mill, a Colchester
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I suspect that the trannie would have been perfectly happy if it hat a 3/4" ply load spreader on it. if you were worried, you could use another 3/4" sheet of ply as well. What you would find is that the van will feel a bit precarious/top heavy going around corners. This takes a bit of getting used to but is not a problem unless you forget to slow down for a corner or roundabout. DAMHIKT. If you get the loan of a trailer then that may make loading and unloading easier as well.
Good luck.
Regards Mark Rand RTFM
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 00:12:27 +0000, Mark Rand

I hired a low-sih trailer from the local argicultural suppliers that was rated to take that sort of weight. I was only moving 3/4 ton though.However my day to day car wouln't be legal towing 2 tons+ but if faced with that I'd either hire a big tow vehicle or more likely borrow my sisters old Landie. However 400+ miles in a 20 year old diesel Landie would be a trial!
Charles
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 07:57:48 +0000, Charles Ping

It wasn't a van, 'twas a pickup. much higher floor, no steel floor under the ply.

I think I'm sorted now with the customer/friend with his Disco & a plant trailer.
I thought about an extra sheet of something, that would have been extra weight(and height, and I didn't have anything suitable about the place. My new hoist had gone through the 5/8" ply base of my own trailer the other day (admittedly not new, but not rotten), & that's only about 300Kg. I wasn't even sure how thick the ply on the transit was, but it certainly no more than 3/4", supported at 600mm centres on flimsy looking bits of folded channel. The lathe base isn't flat, it has mounting feet, so would have needed packing to spread the load. My final decision was a combination of things, including that the height meant more instability & much more difficulty unloading. I was pretty sure I'd be slightly over weight, too, even without the butties. I have a lot of respect for large solid bits of machinery, especially when they're travelling at 60mph! Lathes don't generally have crumple zones fitted <G>
I've done some moves in the past that I'd rather not repeat, & the distance involved meant there would be a lot of pressure on myself to carry the job through once I'd loaded it. If it had been tens of miles, not hundreds, I would certainly have given it a try.
Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 07:57:48 +0000, Charles Ping

It wasn't a van, 'twas a pickup. much higher floor, no steel floor under the ply.

I think I'm sorted now with the customer/friend with his Disco & a plant trailer.
I thought about an extra sheet of something, that would have been extra weight(and height, and I didn't have anything suitable about the place. My new hoist had gone through the 5/8" ply base of my own trailer the other day (admittedly not new, but not rotten), & that's only about 300Kg. I wasn't even sure how thick the ply on the transit was, but it certainly no more than 3/4", supported at 600mm centres on flimsy looking bits of folded channel. The lathe base isn't flat, it has mounting feet, so would have needed packing to spread the load. My final decision was a combination of things, including that the height meant more instability & much more difficulty unloading. I was pretty sure I'd be slightly over weight, too, even without the butties. I have a lot of respect for large solid bits of machinery, especially when they're travelling at 60mph! Lathes don't generally have crumple zones fitted <G>
I've done some moves in the past that I'd rather not repeat, & the distance involved meant there would be a lot of pressure on myself to carry the job through once I'd loaded it. If it had been tens of miles, not hundreds, I would certainly have given it a try.
Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Height is the biggest killer for machine tools. The tipability increases by a factor of 4 as the height increases [ roughly ] Plant trailers are ideal. Wide, double wheels and low but then again this is what they are designed to carry. A lot of the modern vans like the Peugeots and Renaults are OK because they are front wheel drive and have a very low load platform but you are then reliant on fork lift loading, usually on a pallet of dubious strength if they supply it or you can't get it out again.
My latest van, a Peugeot Boxer is absolute crap compared to it's earlier model. They have given the driver more room at the expense of reducing the load space. This now means that large indivisible objects can't be place far enough forward to spread the weight over both axles with the result the rear axle is always running overloaded.
I fetched a Wickman grinder from down on the south coast, not a large one, only about just over a ton. Got this in and strapped down as far forward as it would go and the brute was on the rims. Increased the tyre pressure to 90 pounds which helped slightly but it was dancing all over the road. It was impossible to steer it, you just aimed it.
Approaching one island on the A45 near Oxford it was dancing that much three council workers held placards up saying 5.8, 5.7 and another 5.8
The point is even though it was overloaded on the rear axle the gross vehicle weight of 3,250 kg hadn't been exceeded. The van weights 1,750 empty [ less butties ] and if we put the grinder at a ton and a quarter 1,250 than gross is still only 3,000 kg
-- Regards,
John Stevenson Nottingham, England.
Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk /
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:54:20 +0000, John Stevenson
<Tim leech wrote first actually>
<snippety-snip)
THEN John Stevenson wrote:

We only use the trailer for big and heavy stuff, which is basically why we built it in the first place. It's paid its wages over and over again, and would have been doing this trip for Tim had we not had a sudden funeral to go to which screwed all our arrangements up.
A Ward 2A is about as much as you want to be pulling, as the trailer weighs 1/2 ton by itself, but we have had a Lister JK4 generating set on it, and that was probably getting on for 2-1/2 tons by itself.
One of the problems with the short wheelbase vans like Johns and our last van is exactly what John has said, not enough floor length to get the weight forwards enough. It's great for something like a Raglan 5" which we have had inside, but anything larger and you have loading problems.
The new van (not new now, we've done about 26,000 miles since September) is the long wheel base version with the bigger engine, and it is an excellent towing vehicle and will carry more weight than the physically larger previous vehicle.
I'd hate to have to move something like a Ward with a car and trailer....
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:25:14 +0000 (UTC), Peter A Forbes

I'm sure it would be illegal these day with an 'ordinary' car.
Cheers Tim
Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I've just checked, my Passat is rated for towing 1.6 tonnes gross (braked), the Disco at 2.5 tonnes. Apparently these are not *legal* limits, which surprised me, but the 750Kg gross for all unbraked trailers is. Again, apparently. Do your own checking if it's important <G> But that does mean it's probably just about legal, and even within makers' recommendations, for me to tow the right trailer with a Ward 2A on it with my car, but I agree I really wouldn't want to go far with it.
Cheers Tim
Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

May not be "legal" limits, but if you were towing beyond the manufacturer's recommended weights and indulged in a spot of "creative parking", I suspect the insurers would leave you hung out to dry.
Regards, Tony
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I once 'misplaced' a toolbox off the back of a wrecker onto the bonnet of a panda car going round an island. The toolbox was nowhere near the legal weight but plod wasn't impressed at all. Ten quid fine and fifteen quid costs.
Still only rated a two when compared to the copper who opened the drivers door on our old ERF wrecker and the door and half the cab side pinned him to the slow lane of the motorway. That still makes me smirk to this day seeing a copper spread eagled on the black stuff, arms and legs extended, nose flat on the window and his hat rolling down the hard shoulder. -- Regards,
John Stevenson Nottingham, England.
Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:- http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk /
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I'm sure they would if there was any hint that the extra weight contributed to the 'creative parking'. Apparently one of the factors in these weights is what gradient the vehicle will pull it up, weight of towing vehicle is another. My biggest concern on my car at that sort of weight would be the strength of the towbar. it feels a bit 'springy' with a well balanced 1 tonne gross load.
Cheers Tim
Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
<snip>

I wouldn't worry too much. I lifted the back of my Passat estate clean off the ground with the towbar when I was unloading my Victoria mill and sliding the mill down the trailer. I was more simpressed that my old trailer took it so well....
Charles
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

There is a grey area in towing reg's, where there is the maker's own recommendations, the Govt "suggested" ratings and those which we make up as we go along....
There is a "do not exceed" figure where the trailer must not exceed 75% of the weight of the towing vehicle, but does not give guidance if that is the loaded or the empty van weight. Our van is 2.9 tons gross, this gives 2.175 tons all-up for the trailer. On this basis we could get a bit more behind the van.
But then there is the maker's own recommendation / actual rating / do not exceed figure of 2 tons all-up which comes out at about 1.5 tons payload for us.
In practice it all comes down to what it looks like when Mr Plod comes along. If your vehicle or trailer are actually overweight but don't look as such, they won't bother you, and that is what seems to work on a daily basis for most folks.
Peter
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:23:45 +0000 (UTC), Peter A Forbes

I've also seen 85% quoted as a 'usually no more than', & that doesn't seem to be followed with vehicles like the Disco with a weight of 2 to 2.5 tonnes & a max towing weight of about 2.5 tonnes.

I was certainly astonished to find how little the hire companies knew about what their vehicles could legally carry. What they can *actually* carry is another matter, & that will vary widely with what the load is & how it's distributed. I once (long time ago) hired a Transit (tipper) to go to Oxfordshire to collect one engine (3/4 tonne). Ended up doing a deal on the spot & bringing three back, plus a spare flywheel. I don't think it was unsafe, driven with care, but the law would certainly have thought otherwise if they had got me on a weighbridge. OTOH I wasn't at all happy about the prospective safety of yesterday's job which would have been at or very close to the legal limit for the vehicle.
Cheers Tim
Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.