Banning Incandescent Light bulbs



Yep - it was meant as a compliment, even though I frequently disagree with you, there is a seductive power to your arguments - but too simplistic, too black and white. (for me, at any rate.) But so saying that, there are times, after seeing the latest lunatic Middle East bombing on TV, that the "Nuke the Bastards" options seems VERY attractive....
But your arguments and views are not cynical attempts to gain an electoral advantage - I respect the sincerity of your views, if not the content. But this "lets ban incandescent bulbs" nonsense is just the politicians desperately trying to be seen doing SOMETHING, ANYTHING. its not going to cost too much, (especially their paymasters who bankroll the next election) and the right wing techno geeks will argue on science that its a GOOD IDEA. The loony treehugging left will argue its a GOOD IDEA from emotion,cause it will save the habitat of some cute cuddly endangered animal. (Don't know how, but thats irrelevant) . So the politicians have got a cheap winner. Bloody hell - I do despair of the prospects for the human race if this sort of bullshit goes on for too long...
Gunner, your good value - glad I get the chance to bullshit with you. If you were closer, would do it in person. And look over your shoulder so I could learn a bit more about machine tools from you......
Andrew VK3BFA.
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On 21 Feb 2007 21:40:20 -0800, "Andrew VK3BFA"

It is, and would be a great pleasure.
Gunner
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide" - James Burnham
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On 21 Feb 2007 03:29:54 -0800, "Andrew VK3BFA"

The one good thing about that one big coal fired plant is that it's fairly easy to clean and scrub the flue gases of a big power plant before they go up the stack - far easier than thousands of smaller generation facilities you would need if not for that big one. And easier to retrofit fluidic beds in the boilers, and other emissions slashing methods.

Any fluorescent lamp does not handle frequent cycling well - yet governments insist on putting occupancy sensors in all rooms and hallways with ridiculously short cycle times of 3 to 5 minutes.
If you have someone on staff to change lamps I wouldn't go any shorter than a half-hour turn off time delay, if you have to hire an outside electrician or maintenance company to come change lamps bump that up to an hour minimum.
For a flashing sign you have to go to LED or Neon or Cold Cathode Fluorescent - and then the ballast is the first part to fail.

It gets better - Angelo Brothers Company (AKA ABCO) developed a reputation for selling total crap light bulbs in the USA. A clinker (or several) in every carton...
So what did they do? They licensed the once-proud brand name "Westinghouse" for use on their light bulbs (from another company who now owns the name and was more than glad to whore it out for the money), and you only find out if you read the tiny print on the bottom of the box.

Don't get me going on the proliferation of non-standard "Standard" lamp bases for fluorescent lamps - "Lights Of America" brand is famous for inventing new lamp shapes and new base pinout designs that nobody else will supply replacement lamps for - meaning when you can't buy a lamp they get to sell you a whole new fixture again...
Throw out all the energy and materials used to make the fixture.
--<< Bruce >>--
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On 20 Feb 2007 10:51:51 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@consolidated.net wrote:

this move is actually quite dangerous in a machine shop environment.
fluoro lights pulse light at the supply ac rate. if you run a lathe at a speed which is a multiple of the ac rate the strobing effect will cause the job in the lathe and the chuck to appear stationary. the illusion that the job is stationary is quite convincing I can tell you.
if you must use fluoro lights above a spinning machine you actually need 3 phase supply and you need a triple tube light set up so that each light is supplied off a different phase. with this arrangement you dont get the strobing effect.
one option I have been thinking of implementing to get around this, and I think it is dangerous, is to use a solar panel to charge a 12 volt lead acid battery, and to use that to power a few 12volt dichroic lamps above the lathe. or to stock up on a lifetime supply of tungsten globes.
Stealth Pilot
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On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:05:30 +0900, the renowned Stealth Pilot

Have you tried T-8 bulbs (1" diameter) with an electronic instant-start ballast?

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
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On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:05:30 +0900, with neither quill nor qualm,

If you can't hear the lathe running, should you be running one at all? (Unless you're deaf and know to check for vibration every time.)

The additional incandescent light nearby is said to delete that effect. Give it a try and let us know, wot?
-- If it weren't for jumping to conclusions, some of us wouldn't get any exercise.
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I am not convinced that the above is true. I will try to check it, it is easy. The fluorescent layer on the glass does not stop emitting light at the very moment when the gas stops producing UV.
i

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Hi,     The current new generation of fluorescences ( T-8's), use electronic controls and pulse at about 20,000 Hz. They are also much closer to sunlight in color, and more efficient. The U of AZ is paying for the switch with the money saved by reduced power consumption. In many places they were replacing 4-5 year old fixtures which were state of the art at the time.
Thanks Roger Haar
Larry Jaques wrote:

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Larry Jaques wrote:

If any machine is running fast enough for the electronic balasts to show the "stationary" effect I think you'd notice some other effects. :-) ...lew...
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On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:05:30 +0900, Stealth Pilot

I have had two 4' fluorescents with solid-state ballast over my lathe for over 20 years and have never observed any stroboscopic effect. The ceiling light nearest my mill is a 23-watt CF but I do have two incandescant task lights on the mill as well. I intend to make a 100-lumen LED (Luxeon K2) tasklight for the mill because the dang incandescant jobs sometimes get in the way. The collimated LED light will be about a 1" x 1" cylinder on the end of a slender gooseneck. The incandescant puts out about 800 lumens, but it sprays it all over the place while the LED can be collimated into a 6" dia region -- so light in the region of interest will actually be whiter and brighter than with a 50-watt (hot!) quartz-halogen.
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That'd be true if the phosphors are short-glowing, but I think their cycle is significantly longer than 1/60th of a second.

Hm. I just tried it with a modern CFL (GE brand) and my lathe and can't get the effect you state. I know what you mean, I just can't get it to do it.
DC lighting is always an option, unless they're going to ban headlights too.
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The phosphors have very short persistence. I was able to measure the frequency of a CFL with a photodetector and scope while trying to determine if I could use CFLs for a machine vision system with sub-millisecond exposure times. The frequency was up around 30kHz.
Ned Simmons
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Hm. So why can't I get my lathe to look like it's standing still then? Also, at 1800 RPM, it makes a hella noise.
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Well, if the light is flashing, it should flash twice per cycle, or 120 times per second. So that's 7200 rpm to make it stand still. At 1800 RPM, you should see it frozen in 4 different positions.
But it seems to me that the light won't flash. It will probably pulsate with the current to some extend and actually produce light for some sizable percentage of the cycle (how high does the voltage have to get in each cycle to make it produce some light?). Between the blur effect you might get from the light not flashing, but instead, being on for some percentage of time around the peak of each half cycle, combined with the the 4x position effect you would get at 1800 RPM, maybe there's just too much blur to see it?
Now I feel the need to do some tests in my shop!!!
First I think I need to do some testing with a photo diode and scope. I think I might have one around here somewhere....
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I would propose then, that since my lathe won't run at 7200 RPM, this for me is a non-issue.

Hence, not a problem. Therefore, object for real reasons, not fabricated ones.

Automotive timing light?
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I don't have one...
A quick test with the drill press made it clear there was a strobe effect caused by the lights if I looked hard. I could clearly see the chunk key holes spinning backwards at a slower speed - but it was all a big blur and not anything someone would mistake for standing still. My press only has 4 different speeds and none of them are close enough to the the required speed to make it stand still (I wonder of this might not be an accident?).
Another quick test with my variable speed hand drill showed I could regulate the speed to make the rubber grip ribs in the chunk stand still. But the blur was far too great for anyone to every mistake it for standing still. That' was with 40W shop fluorescent fixtures. Even with a lathe spinning the correct speed, I don't think anyone would be fooled into thinking it was standing still because the blur would be too bad with these lights. The light seems to stays on for too long in each cycle.
Maybe some other brand or, or size, or color light would have a shorter and brighter flash of light which would created a dangerous condition.
Anyone who has seen how a strobe light can fool you into thinking a fan is standing still knows how dangerous it could be under the right conditions. The fact that the fan is making lots of noise and the "standing still" fan is blowing your hair back isn't enough to keep you from doing something stupid at times. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that just the wrong type of fluorescent light could fool someone into believing their lathe was standing still - just long enough to loose some important body part. But it sounds like you are safe.
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Because you haven't got it up to 60 x 30,000 => 1,800,000 RPM yet. <g>
Ned Simmons
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dont know. I have always used incandescent 50 watt lights over my lathe.
I have actually seen the strobing effect just once. the guy used solar power to a large battery bank and then used a step up electronic inverter to drive the fluoro lights. every time he turned his lathe on it looked stationary when it was up to speed.
an eerie effect. Stealth Pilot
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So. Based on one very atypical installation, you made a sweeping generalization about an entire lighting technology, and presented it as authoritative?

No, lots of people do it. "eerie" isn't the word I usually use to describe it though.
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bullshit. it has actually been a piece of safety information in australia that has been around for over 30 years.
it was on my friends installation that I first saw it. ...because no one over here uses fluoro tubes over lathes because of the safety issue.
our supply at 50hz might be more prone to the effect btw.
Stealth Pilot
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