Carbon-fiber Use In Street Cars Starts To Accelerate

For those not as clueless as KiddingNoOne or Ed Huntress here are the facts of what's happening with carbon-fiber use in the automotive business. Expe
ct to see major breakthroughs in carbon-fiber manufacture continue rapidly that will reduce it's high labor cost:
http://tinyurl.com/kmdk7eg
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/automobiles/carbon-fiber-light-and-strong -arrives-where-its-most-needed.html?_r=2&utm_source=buffer&utm_campaign =Buffer&utm_content=bufferc5242&utm_medium=twitter&
"Until recently, however, there was no way that cars with everyday price ta gs could contain substantial amounts of carbon fiber. Electric vehicles in particular would benefit, as the weight reduction would translate into long er driving distances on each battery charge.
That is how BMW ended up plunging far deeper into the lightweight materials world than executives might have expected a decade ago when the company st arted making carbon-fiber roof panels for the high performance M3 CSL. Now BMW is not only producing carbon-fiber body structures for the passenger ce ll of the i3 E.V. ? first shown as a design study in 2011 and due to be p resented to the media in Germany this week ? but it will manufacture the basic material itself. This is something of a throwback to Ford making its own steel in the Model T days."
"The car?s carbon upper frame is formed using a process called resin tran sfer molding. Multiple layers of the flexible carbon-fiber textile are plac ed into molds by robots. Resin and catalyst are injected under pressure, fo llowed by a period of heat and pressure; the pieces harden into rigid struc tures in minutes.
Next, the carbon parts are joined to one another, and to metal parts used i n some of the assemblies, by an adhesive bonding process. The showers of sp arks and unrelenting din of a traditional steel bodymaking operation, which relies on thousands of robotic welds, are eliminated.
Even though the carbon-fiber material is still much more expensive than ste el, differences in the overall bodymaking process yield cost savings that h elp to offset the cost. For starters, the i3 body structure uses just 130 c arbon-fiber pieces, compared with about 400 for a steel body. The smaller n umber is partly explained by the ability of engineers to design very comple x parts for the molding process that would not be feasible with the huge st amping presses and dies used to make steel parts. Often a single complex ca rbon part can replace four or five metal parts that would be welded togethe r.
?We can produce an i3 in about 20 hours, versus about 40 hours for a 3 Se ries car and using just one-half the space needed for a steel body shop,? said Daniel Schaefer, who oversaw development of the i3 production process ."
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The only way to make electric cars viable with current battery technology and current gas prices is to dramatically reduce their weight and cost.
The bottom line for this newsgroup is that this is just another case where both Ed Huntress and KiddingNoOne are full of shit and talk out their ass:
The Chevy Volt is an overweight fat pig that will never be commercially viable unless it's completely redesigned.
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On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:32:41 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

When they actually build and sell them, we'll see where it stands. In the meantime, you've got another piece of vaporware -- a Jon Banquer Blue Smoke Special.
--
Ed Huntress


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On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 18:03:59 -0400, Ed Huntress

Even his vaporware weighs almost 3000 pounds in the EV version, and will top 3000 (same as a Prius) for the hybrid version... and uses CF to reduce the price to <drumroll> $40k. And what happened to "nobody needs more than 60hp?" The latest vaporware has 170! If the theory is that the market needs a very modest EV, this BMW sure aint it.
Making a car smaller and more expensive by using exotic materials is no breakthrough. The i3 is about the size of a Prius C, but is _heavier_. I fail to see ANY great weight saving, probably because it's only about 300 pounds which is hard to discern in the big picture.
The i3 should be fun to drive and the small size would be handy in a crowded city. Range is limited even on the hybrid version though, so most prospective buyers would need an ICE car (or a Volt :) ) to use on longer trips.
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On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:08:27 -0700, whoyakidding's ghost

I think the manufacturers are all doing market research and trying to figure out where the most promising niche is. At $40, this one would be up in that "first-on-my-block" niche.

The weight saving is supposed to be about half the chassis weight. But we're reading press-release material at this point. There are a lot of contradictions in the stories. We're going to have to wait and see.

Note that the proposed hybrid version is BMW's take on the Angstmobile -- it has a tiny, serial engine -- and they're hoping that it will come in at $40k. <g>
BMW appears to have a lot of balls in the air on this one. The two big ones are that they're projecting the cost for carbon fiber tow (unwoven fiber) to come in a "1/3 the cost" of commercial fiber. They're building a plant in Washington state to make it, close to hydro power, because much or most most the cost of making carbon fiber is the energy it requires. One pound of CFRC (carbon-fiber reinforced composite) requires five times as much energy to make as one pound of steel.
The other big deal is the "minutes" to cure a panel. GM is making carbon-fiber Corvette hoods with a 17-minute cure time now, so it probably is doable.
I hope it works. As I said before, "maybe next year" for extensive use of carbon fiber in cars. But right now they're building show models and sending out press releases. They're putting a lot of money into it but they have no experience to show if it will work in production.
We'll see. Good luck with it, BMW.
--
Ed Huntress

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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:32:58 -0400, Ed Huntress

That's $40k for the electric-only version. The hybrid, one presumes, will cost quite a bit more.
--
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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:38:45 -0400, Ed Huntress

At only 650 cc it shouldn't cost much extra. Estimates are about $4k more, which makes it pricier than a Volt but for a lot less car. Detractors say the Volt is too small, and the i3 is 20" shorter. The costly striving (in both money and driveability) for light weight, which seems to be mostly hype anyway, doesn't have much advantage on vehicles with regeneration. Maybe people will pay more for clear coated CF body panels? :) The i3 hybrid does have the potential to have a higher EV percentage for buyers who need more than the 40 mile EV range of the Volt, but it gives up utility and unlimited ICE range, so it appears to be aimed at a niche of a niche market. I can't relate to the "city car" concept. Maybe there are enough buyers who'll pay more for less to make tight parking easier. For that, good rear visibility is probably more important than the short length.
Speaking of parking, there was a Mythbusters eposide that featured parallel parking. A couple mentions of "bumping" one's way into a space. Christ.
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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 08:08:24 -0700, whoyakidding's ghost

Maybe that was one of my neighbors. We're loaded with them. They're called Asian Indian women.
They're the scourge of our roads and highways.
--
Ed Huntress

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On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 6:03:59 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:

Since they have broken ground for a plant in Moses Lake , Washington, it looks like they are serious.
Dan
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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 12:12:31 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Listen, clown, I've convered composites in aerospace and car manufacturing for decades. The situation is exactly as I've described: For the past 33 years, it's always been "high-volume CFRC is coming next year -- or very soon."
Only it never has. Right now, all that's being done with it in the automotive arena is half-million-dollar race car chassis and a few parts, like the hood of the Corvette, the Viper, and a few others, for test and development work.
I've also said it would require breakthroughs both in material cost and manufacturing cost. They haven't happened yet. BMW's press releases say they believe both will happen, and they'll build these cars next year.
It's always "next year," year after year. I'm very hopeful that BMW is right in their projections. I'd like to see it happen "next year."

That's what people do who have more mouth than brains.

So far, all you have is a bunch of Banquer Blue Smoke Specials, and what you know about it is a bunch of press-release cotton candy.
--
Ed Huntress

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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:32:18 -0400, Ed Huntress

Bonkers is way behind as usual. The new meme is making fun of social media and how ridiculously overrated it is.
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/07/social-media-isnt-always-that-important/
http://gizmodo.com/5989635/here-are-all-your-favorite-social-networks-explained

Notice how helpless Bonkers is to explain why all the CF made the i3 HEAVIER than the similar sized Prius C. Maybe he posted the explanation on his facebook? Nope, just checked, all he's doing there is talking to himself. If that page had a visit counter I bet it would have read zero until just now. Gawd, his mug looks as disgruntled as his writing. He should change his photo to this.
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1241/567266842_992dc49093.jpg
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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 13:18:10 -0700, whoyakidding's ghost

Maybe if he changed his name to Kardashian...no, then he'd have to do a sex tape, and that's not a happy thought.
And besides, where would all those "members" of his LinkedIn group go to promote their own services and products? They'd have to find someone new to take for a ride <g>

The real issue with CFRP is cost. BMW apparently is tossing out different figures, or maybe they're changing over time and the reports just aren't keeping up.
It's clear what the technical and physical results could be. What's not clear is whether they have a production process, or a string of processes that are to be conducted on three different continents, that will live up to their cost projections.
From past experience with such things, I'll wait and see what they actually get onto sales lots and what their manufacturing cost really is.
--
Ed Huntress

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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 17:00:06 -0400, Ed Huntress

It seems like everywhere I visit on the intertubes, somebody's making fun of social media. And I say, what took them so long? :) How bizarre that Bonkers chooses Usenet to promote his failed social media career, which is almost certainly funded by some kind of social assistance benefit. See that guy ranting on the street corner, and wonder how he got there? Because his monthly check doesn't go as far as it used to, and he chose to pay for the service contract on his juicer instead of keeping up his internet/linkedin access. :)
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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 14:18:43 -0700, whoyakidding's ghost

He apparently doesn't appreciate the irony of bitching about our use of Usenet...while he's here on Usenet...instread of doing it on "modern social media." d8-)

Think of the tragedy of having all those vegetables and having to actually *eat* them, instead of turning them into a solid suspension or a nice, healthy, coloidal emulsion.
Maybe he needs a battery backup for it -- a hybrid root and tuber masticator.
--
Ed Huntress

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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:51:29 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Banquer, you lying phony, how would you know what I do? I haven't written an ad for about 12 years.

You can't do squat except yap on your "group." How much does that pay, Jon? What are you doing for a living these days?
--
Ed Huntress

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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 20:28:16 -0400, Ed Huntress

Congratulations on silencing the pointlessly mouthy Bonkers with a simple question. LOL
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On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:11:58 -0700, whoyakidding's ghost

Ho-ho! 'You think that will stop him? Jon will now spew lies and accusations for a while, trying to distract attention from the question while ignoring it.
Just keep asking. Eventually he returns to his hollow tree, er, LinkedIn, and confines himself to being a pest over there.
--
Ed Huntress

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On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:41:06 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer
That pays nothing. What are you doing for a living these days? Post the facts. LOL
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On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 09:00:39 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Whoyakidding? If you're earning any sort of living, then there's nothing stopping you from saying so right here and now. It would take less typing than all your silly horseshit. No meetings required.
What are you doing for a living these days? Post the facts.
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On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 09:00:39 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Gee, that sounds an awful lot like lies and accusations to distract attention from his question....Wait a minute...I just said that's exactly what you'd do. d8-)
So, Jon, what are you doing to make a living these days?
--
Ed Huntress

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