Company planning biggest rocket since man on moon

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WASHINGTON (AP) =97 A high-tech entrepreneur unveiled plans Tuesday to launch the world's most powerful rocket since man went to the moon.

Space Exploration Technology has already sent the first private rocket and capsule into Earth's orbit as a commercial venture. It is now planning a rocket that could lift twice as much cargo into orbit as the soon-to-be-retired space shuttle.

The first launch is slotted for 2013 from California with follow-up launches from Cape Canaveral in Florida.

Space X's new rocket called Falcon Heavy is big enough to send cargo or even people out of Earth's orbit to the moon, an asteroid or Mars. Only the long retired Saturn V rocket that sent men to the moon was bigger.

"This is a rocket of truly huge scale," said Space X president Elon Musk, who also founded PayPal and manufactures electric sports cars.

The Falcon Heavy could put 117,000 pounds into the same orbit as the International Space Station. The space shuttle hauls about 54,000 pounds into orbit. The old Saturn V could carry more than 400,000 pounds of cargo.

The old Soviet Union had a giant moon rocket bigger than the Falcon Heavy, but it failed in all four launch attempts. Another Soviet rocket, also bigger than Falcon Heavy and designed to launch its version of the space shuttle, had one successful flight more than 20 years ago.

While the new Space X rocket is designed initially for cargo, it satisfies NASA's current safety requirements for carrying humans and after several launches could carry people too, Musk said. He has said that if NASA does buys rides on commercial rockets, he would be able to fly astronauts to the space station in his smaller Falcon 9 rocket and Dragon capsule within three years.

Potential customers for the new larger rocket are NASA, the military, other governments and satellite makers.

Musk said Falcon Heavy will be far cheaper than government or private rockets. Launches are about $100 million each. He said the Air Force pays two older more established aerospace firms about $435 million for each of its launches. Over its 40 year design history, the space shuttle program has cost about $1.5 billion per launch, according to a study by the University of Colorado and an Associated Press analysis of NASA budgets.

Musk, who has a contract to supply the space station with cargo using the smaller Falcon 9, said his pricing is more fixed than traditional aerospace firms. He joked: "We believe in everyday low prices."

To get costs that low, Musk said he needs to launch about four Falcon Heavy rockets a year but plans on launching about 10. He doesn't have a paying customer for his first launch, but is in negotiations with NASA and other customers for flights after his company proves the new rocket flies.

"It would be great if it works, if it's safe," said Henry Lambright, a professor of public policy and space scholar at Syracuse University. "I don't want to come across as skeptical, but I am."

Lambright said companies have often made big claims about private space without doing much. But, he added, Musk has some credibility because of his successful Falcon 9.

If Musk's plans work, it will give President Barack Obama's space policy a needed boost, Lambright said. Obama has been battling some in Congress over his plans to use more private space companies, like Space X, for getting people to orbit with NASA concentrating on missions to send astronauts to new places, such as nearby asteroids.

Several companies are vying to launch private rockets that could replace the shuttle. NASA is now paying Russia to send astronauts to and from the space station on Soyuz spacecraft. Howard McCurdy, a space policy expert at American University, said of Musk: "If he's not in the lead, he's well positioned for the finish."

McCurdy said NASA's space shuttle was a technological marvel, but had a bad business model and wasn't cost effective. He said Musk, who is using his own money in his privately held firm, has incentive to be more financially savvy.

Announcement from SpaceX

SOURCE: The Associated Press

Reply to
rangerssuck
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WASHINGTON (AP) ? A high-tech entrepreneur unveiled plans Tuesday to launch the world's most powerful rocket since man went to the moon.

Space Exploration Technology has already sent the first private rocket and capsule into Earth's orbit as a commercial venture. It is now planning a rocket that could lift twice as much cargo into orbit as the soon-to-be-retired space shuttle.

The first launch is slotted for 2013 from California with follow-up launches from Cape Canaveral in Florida.

Space X's new rocket called Falcon Heavy is big enough to send cargo or even people out of Earth's orbit to the moon, an asteroid or Mars. Only the long retired Saturn V rocket that sent men to the moon was bigger.

"This is a rocket of truly huge scale," said Space X president Elon Musk, who also founded PayPal and manufactures electric sports cars.

The Falcon Heavy could put 117,000 pounds into the same orbit as the International Space Station. The space shuttle hauls about 54,000 pounds into orbit. The old Saturn V could carry more than 400,000 pounds of cargo.

The old Soviet Union had a giant moon rocket bigger than the Falcon Heavy, but it failed in all four launch attempts. Another Soviet rocket, also bigger than Falcon Heavy and designed to launch its version of the space shuttle, had one successful flight more than 20 years ago.

While the new Space X rocket is designed initially for cargo, it satisfies NASA's current safety requirements for carrying humans and after several launches could carry people too, Musk said. He has said that if NASA does buys rides on commercial rockets, he would be able to fly astronauts to the space station in his smaller Falcon 9 rocket and Dragon capsule within three years.

Potential customers for the new larger rocket are NASA, the military, other governments and satellite makers.

Musk said Falcon Heavy will be far cheaper than government or private rockets. Launches are about $100 million each. He said the Air Force pays two older more established aerospace firms about $435 million for each of its launches. Over its 40 year design history, the space shuttle program has cost about $1.5 billion per launch, according to a study by the University of Colorado and an Associated Press analysis of NASA budgets.

Musk, who has a contract to supply the space station with cargo using the smaller Falcon 9, said his pricing is more fixed than traditional aerospace firms. He joked: "We believe in everyday low prices."

To get costs that low, Musk said he needs to launch about four Falcon Heavy rockets a year but plans on launching about 10. He doesn't have a paying customer for his first launch, but is in negotiations with NASA and other customers for flights after his company proves the new rocket flies.

"It would be great if it works, if it's safe," said Henry Lambright, a professor of public policy and space scholar at Syracuse University. "I don't want to come across as skeptical, but I am."

Lambright said companies have often made big claims about private space without doing much. But, he added, Musk has some credibility because of his successful Falcon 9.

If Musk's plans work, it will give President Barack Obama's space policy a needed boost, Lambright said. Obama has been battling some in Congress over his plans to use more private space companies, like Space X, for getting people to orbit with NASA concentrating on missions to send astronauts to new places, such as nearby asteroids.

Several companies are vying to launch private rockets that could replace the shuttle. NASA is now paying Russia to send astronauts to and from the space station on Soyuz spacecraft. Howard McCurdy, a space policy expert at American University, said of Musk: "If he's not in the lead, he's well positioned for the finish."

McCurdy said NASA's space shuttle was a technological marvel, but had a bad business model and wasn't cost effective. He said Musk, who is using his own money in his privately held firm, has incentive to be more financially savvy.

Announcement from SpaceX

SOURCE: The Associated Press

****************

My mom worked at NASA on the shuttle designs back in the '60s and '70s, the technology was very cool but there was no consideration for cost/lb of payload. A lot of the lifting body technology dates back to the '50s. The program wasn't supposed to last as long as it did, it was supposed to lead into more-better science. The Russians used steel and LOX/kerosene for a cost per pound of payload that was

1/100th that of the shuttle. I STILL don't have my promised atomic powered flying car!
Reply to
Tom Gardner

That's very cool. What did your mom do there? While the Shuttle was very ineffecient, I always thought that NASA missed out on a huge advertising deal when I saw a show about the turnaround procedures for the Shuttle, and they showed them spraying each and every tile with Scotchguard.

I remember hearing an interview with a NASA guy about 20 years ago asking why we couldn't just build another Saturn V to go back to the moon. He basically said that there's nobody left who knows how, and that all or most of the tooling was gone.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Tom...We don't agree on most things political, but if you want to join me in a class action against Popular Science and Popular Mechanics, I'm up for it. I want my flying car, my gyrocopter and my jet pack.

Reply to
rangerssuck

That's very cool. What did your mom do there? While the Shuttle was very ineffecient, I always thought that NASA missed out on a huge advertising deal when I saw a show about the turnaround procedures for the Shuttle, and they showed them spraying each and every tile with Scotchguard.

I remember hearing an interview with a NASA guy about 20 years ago asking why we couldn't just build another Saturn V to go back to the moon. He basically said that there's nobody left who knows how, and that all or most of the tooling was gone.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Tom...We don't agree on most things political, but if you want to join me in a class action against Popular Science and Popular Mechanics, I'm up for it. I want my flying car, my gyrocopter and my jet pack.

************

Mom was a mathematician, her department checked all the equations for other departments. She did get me a sample shuttle tile. It's like Styrofoam, very light and fragile, but you can heat it with an oxy/atc torch and grab it with your hand and it's cool. She never did get me a sample of solid propellant....bitch!

Reply to
Tom Gardner

My grandfather was a research mechanic at Lewis Research Center in Ohio. The six oldest of us grandsons all wore one of his five year NASA pins on our lapel when we carried his casket last year. That and my wedding ring are the only two pieces of jewelry I own that I care about.

He was with NASA from the very beginning and retired in 1980/81. I remember wandering around the lab (with him) just amazed by the open canisters of liquid nitrogen boiling away and nobody paying them any more mind or taking anymore care than they would about a hot cup of coffee.

Funny thing is even with the inside track and getting to visit in the labs a few times I learned more at the visitor's center from the public exhibits. Some of it was pretty lame, but it was geared more towards my knowledge and education at the time.

I remember his biggest gripe was that they would get some new "geniuses" in the lab, and they would repeat a lot of the same old experiments. Since the previous batch of eggheads had moved on the only ones there to tell them they were repeating themselves were the mechanics like my grandfather who got to setup the same experiments for the new guys that he had done two or three times before, and heaven forbid they should listen to a guy who had already done the experiment if he didn't have atleast a doctorate. LOL. He might have been the one to coin the phrase, "Its not rocket surgery."

Getting back on topic. I always wondered why we didn't steal the skin technology of the soviet space plane for the shuttle. Seems I recall hearing horror stories about all the individually fitted tiles on the shuttle from the very first launch.

Reply to
Bob La Londe

Yeah. They kept falling off. I was reporting on the machining and assembly of those things at the time -- machineable ceramics were a hot topic in those days, if you'll forgive the pun. They eventually got something to stick. I forget how that all went.

Reply to
Ed Huntress

That's because those of us that poured that shit into the cases were taking the leftovers home to light our BBQ grills . Not really , but your mom stood no chance at all of getting her hands on propellant . They watched it pretty close , the formula was a secret back then . Might still be , but I can't remember now just what was in it .

Reply to
Snag

Small world, mom was at Lewis too! It's about a mile from the old family house in Fairview Park. Did you get to see the "hole" for zero-G testing? On the west side of the center, bordering the Rocky River Valley, they have a shaft going down 1,000'...I think it's that deep, that they would drop stuff and test in free-fall. I remember wanting to spit down the hole but mom wouldn't let me.

I remember going to many, many lectures at the visitor's center. That was probably the biggest impetus for me to become an engineer. It was an exciting time back then!

IIRC the biggest problem with the tiles was finding an adhesive that would work. I still have my tile and I treasure it!

Reply to
Tom Gardner

That was OK, I had a fleet of Estes rockets, many of which I attached cameras, critters and warheads to. Back then those motors were $.25 each and I would scrounge pop bottles, mow lawns and such and wait by the window for the UPS truck to bring my goodies.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

There isn't anybody left who knows how to read a print and bend tin??????

Thanks, Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

And if you don't mind throw away rockets at a fraction of the cost of NASA's throw away rockets you could make awesome fireworks with cardboard engine holders and the old (stiffer than now) paper towel tubes with cardboard fins glued on. The hardest part was scrounging up nose cones, and if you filled a semi plastic ball with fireballs cut a hole for the retro charge, and used lots of package tape you didn't need one. Not that ME or any of MY friends ever did that since fireworks were illegal in Arizona when I was a kid. We did launch lots of rockets that had spontaneous failures at maximum altitude though.

Reply to
Bob La Londe

Never saw the hole. Might have been cool though.

Yeah, I have a few pieces of the Oklahoma City Federal Building, but they aren't on my list of treasures though. A buddy of mine who was a security guard on the wreckage sent me some before they were told they couldn't do it.

Reply to
Bob La Londe

Not really so secret. I got lucky enough to meet and become good aquaintances with the guy who originally formulated the SRB package. He is not well now - very advanced in age - but lives in Utah, and still sells the surplus chemicals that Morton Thiokol rejected on QC issues. He has tons and tons of the stuff, and lots of amateur rocketeers get their chems from him.

It's basically ammonium perchlorate, HTPB (or now CTPB) rubber, aluminum, iron oxide, and carbon, cured (then, at least) by an isocyanate curative.

I still have a few "kits" of the stuff.

LLoyd

Reply to
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh

For Pete Sakes, Rich, there was a lot more to a Saturn V than that!

Reply to
CaveLamb

CaveLamb fired this volley in news:04SdnaCWk6Zs_jnQnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.com:

For sure, that's true, but the other question still nags... how many good engineers do you see rising from our education system.

If they are good, want to bet whether or not they're American-born or "exchange students" here on a student visa?

LLoyd

Reply to
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh

If engineers had a bright future and adequate pay (relative to other professions requiring similar ability and commitment) there would be NO problem attracting sufficient quantities of bright young folks.

Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

They cannot attract good people because the engineer's unions and associations (at the time) were too stupid to foresee the future as the teachers, doctors and other professions did. Now they mostly make less than the trades. Perhaps this is justified as most of the trades have more education in real life, and sometimes only one year less formal schooling, anyway.

Live in a black box, get paid black box pay?

------------------------

Reply to
Josepi

I don't think it is that the pay for engineers is inadequate. I think it is just that smart kids are attracted to the ridiculously high pay of "financial engineering" where they think of new ways to steal money legally.

Reply to
anorton

Yabbut, once they settled on a design and built a couple to that spec, did they shred the spec or something? If they could build to print back then, why can't they build to print today?

Unless it's as simple as, as others have noted, they've been dumbing-down the schools so bad that the "Engineers" can't even follow a print? I currently sit in a shop where there are a couple of Real Machinists, and I've seen them cut parts to dead nuts. There's a guy out there right now, making a skew cut by turning the "X" drive on, and doing "Y" by hand, and coming out within .030".

Thanks, Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

Exactly. Nobody wants his kids to be "making do" with a crummy 32G iPod touch and Ericson phone when the other have 64G, iPhones and iPads with 3G data plans.

Of course if you're world-class you can do very, very well in the right area (aerospace/defense/resource and others), but for the majority of folks they'd better look at alternatives rather than end up at some dead-end job in Detroit designing starter motors or something.

Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

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