Copper Casting In Ancient America

On Sat, 29 May 2004 00:43:08 +0200, Erik Hammerstad wrote: [snip]

As a footnote to this, it was her husband who suggested I get in touch with her when I raised the question of the amount of copper claimed to have been mined in the area.

Doug

Doug, who was the one who started the cutting????? You deliberately cut your first answer under the new title: Logic analyse.....! You deliberatly made it look as if an example was the thing I had up for debate! Stop forging my lines. Discuss the subject I put forward - the logic analyse of the three possible scenarios, or else you and I have nothing to discuss. I may have or may not have chosen an example that could be better - that's neither the point nor is it was I discussed!

Inger E

First however she cut out everything I wrote despite my saying she did not have my permission -- her doing this makes it hard to follow the discussion and allows her to duck answering my questions.

No I clearly snipped out the bit I wanted to discuss. This is proper Usenet procedure. I didn't not mention copper casting or your logic.

Stop making an ass of yourself. And don't forget, if I ever have the time and resources I will look into the possibility of suing you for libel. You'd better find some legislation that backs up these false accusations.

I am not trying to discuss what you call your 'logic analyse', I am trying to discuss a couple of other points in your post.

It is clear now that you never read the article about the 'rebirth' of the iron furnace, and probably didn't even find the abstract.

It is also clear that you will not answer the questions I asked, and instead insist on cutting them out so that others might not know I asked them.

Under *this* subject l> There exists no scholar on this earth that is able to say that to

And my response

"I was *only* pointing out that your claim about a rebirth of a furnace, and your suggestion that it might point to ancient copper castings, was based on ignorance of the content of the article.

What needs to be proved is the amount of the copper production by the 'Old Copper Culture' in upper Michigan. Tell how how much copper you think was produced, and the evidence for it. Somehow I don't think you will."

And you haven't. It is my opinion that this means you can't. You do this all the time, make statements that you can't back up. It's destroyed your credibility IMHO.

Don't cut out my post, or if you must cut out some bits, show them with a SNIP.

Doug

Inger,

So does Martin; that's the point. She has access to specialists in the relevant fields who work in the UP of Michigan--the main area of concern.

Stop pretending that only you can consult with those who know things you don't know. In Martin's case, stop assuming that she has no relevant education or experience herself.

Tom McDonald

Inger,

Who are they, and what are their qualifications in the Old Copper industry of the Great Lakes area?

Tom McDonald

Hi, Eric,

I'm afraid that the sort of bias that is evident in Mr. McDonald's posts represents all too well the general attitude of American archaeologists. Clearly, when discussing the cultural sophistication of the American Indians, the burden of proof is on the one who's saying that they are both intelligent and sophisticated. The default assumption OTOH seems to be that they are rather dumb, and could never figure out how to make copper casts -- something that even a pre-teen could be able to figure out on his own...

But there's one thing that Mr. McDonald and his ilk can never dispute. The fact is that, just like you say, the early work of those metallurgists who pursued this challenge to the mainstream position, and argued that the Indians used to cast copper, has been resolutely ignored by the mainstream archaeologists for great many years now. So this is the proof of an institutionalised bias in American archaeology.

All the best,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=-

Inger,

By not quoting Doug's post, you neatly avoid the necessity to deal with what he actually argued.

Doug asked you to tell us whether the full paper contradicted the abstract. Instead of answering him with evidence, you snipped his post and changed the subject.

BTW, only the quotes from Mallery's book support your contention wrt casting copper. The others, uniformly, are either silent on the issue, or directly contradict (via reference to metallurgical studies of relevant artifacts) you.

And before you jump me, I *did* read all of the urls, and carefully read your post. You are not badly wrong on your logical structure wrt the effect of finding cast copper in the Great Lakes area before Columbus. However, your supporting documentation is either from a popular work, or is wildly misunderstood by you.

Do you really mean to tell us that you think it possible that Egyptians or Phonecians brought copper working technology to the Great Lakes area before 4000 BC? If so, present evidence that those worthies had the relevant technology at that time.

And, just for giggles, tell me what relevance to the discussion you find in an article that notes that nearly all mounds in the area were pre-European contact?

Tom McDonald

Please quote the relevant portions of my post in any reply.

TSM

Yeah, yeah, the usual failure to speak proper english while criticising a native speaker for not speaking proper english. Yawn.

I'll tell you what, Inger, I reckon you know full well that this is a completely dishonest and entirely s*it-filled post by you and if you really were even remotely religious, you would worry about the sheer lack of morals you display to all and sundry. What you are doing is hurting the religion you are associated with.

If this is your intention, then I haven't really got a problem with that. There are people who make incredible nonsense posts and pretend to be inspired by god and that, deliberately to cast shame on the religion they tend to support.

But you *really* ought to talk to other members of your church and get some level of "is this sensible / honest". Of course, you may be *afraid* to find out one way or another, I can't fault that as cowardice is a natural aspect of someone's personality, not a fault in that sense. But a coward must know they can't face the situation and ought to know why.

I understood that Yuri thought that the technology was brought to the Americas from the Old World. I may be wrong. Can someone ask him if he is saying there that copper casting was not brought to the Americas from elsewhere but is completely indigenous?

Doug

Yuri,

I'm also curious about this. Do you say that Indians in the Great Lakes area independently invented copper casting without any input from anyone from the Old World?

Tom McDonald

Apparently on date Sat, 29 May 2004 13:49:28 +1200, Eric Stevens

I'm pleased, in the capacity of just another punter, to see you make this specific statement Eric. :)

According to the reports cited by Mallery, that last does not seem to be correct.

Eric Stevens

"Eric Stevens" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Neither according to the excavation reports and articles Doc in LA sent me 7 years ago.

Inger E

That the reports cited by Mallery claims something else is not proof that the statement on the University of Minnesota website is incorrect, only that there is a conflict of opinion.

Eric,

Are those the ones you haven't been able to locate?

Tom McDonald

He quoted from them Tom......

Inger E

PLONK!

I have no time for these personal attacks.

Mr. Harrison is just one of these time-wasters. Lots of blather, that's all we get from him...

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=-

Inger,

Do try to keep up. He quoted from the Mallery book. He's previously said that he hasn't been able to locate important original material that Mallery used to write the book, that might shed more light on the claims in the book.

Now, can you tell give us details about the supposed finding of GL copper in early mideaval Iceland or not. With only your memory of something like that from somewhere you'd read something or other, no sane person would take Icelandic GL copper as proven.

Tom McDonald

P.S.: Thank you for quoting my post. Keep it up.

TSM

Yuri,

So you agree that, if evidence of casting copper is found in the Great Lakes area, it was done by Indians?

Tom McDonald