Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper

It is confidential because Inger made it up and it is therefore her intellectual property.

(I'll bet that not may people ever thought they'd see "Inger" and "intellectual" in the same sentence).

Inger is referring to a source of which I made recent mentoin in Message-ID:

My source is confident of the conclusoin but I have no real idea why. I have a document written in Danish which might throw some light on the subject but I am not able to eother read it or give a copy to someone who can. Most frustrating.

I live with it every day. I have written many long technical reports of which I am not able to say a word. I am aware there are others who subscribe to sci.archaeology who are in the same situation, if not necessarily for the same reasons.

Eric Stevens

If my information is correct, it might not be just speculation.

Eric Stevens

"Eric Stevens" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

actually not entirely Eric, you happened to present me with information same day as I was 'hunting' the Icelandic Annals for a detail re. a person mentioned in a diploma from 1430 as having had his silvership(traded Silver from Iceland to Orkney and Lynn) hijacked by English pirates short after leaving Reykjavik. I linked that person, due to some information in the diploma, to other diplomas among them that where King Erik call for the English King to settle the claims due to English fisherman fishing in Icelandic and Greenlandic waters the last 20 years (410's on forward) and the English pirates who hijacked the Norse-Danish-Swedish King's merchandiser ships, including one of the Royal knarr btw.

I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes from Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to Rome together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I really hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up.

Inger E

>

"Eric Stevens" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

It's definitely not speculation. It's in contemporary documents which I am trying to link to events mentioned in the Icelandic Annals. I also have it directly from the Indian tribe who worked in the silver-mine that there was a trade. That part will be presented later. Working on details which links and proves the close contact between Greenlanders and Canadian Indians.

Inger E

Well, I did get a file from you, and sent back some brief comments on some of the things there - however, the file in question does not answer any questions regarding the origin of silver (or copper for that matter).

-frisk

Well, that is just like saying "If my information is correct, the moon might be made of green cheese".

I'm perfectly willing to listen to any convincing arguments, but the fact is that so far no evidence has been presented - some secret document you may or may not have just doens't count, sorry.

-frisk

This link:

about medieval textiles, and says " Early in Icelandic history, when silver was plentiful but cloth was scarce, six ells of vaðmál (the standard legal tender grade of 2/2 twill wool cloth) were worth one eyrir, or about 24.5 grams of silver (Hoffmann, 195). As the years went on, this number ballooned to 48 ells before stabilizing at about 45 ells around the year 1200 (Dennis et al., 21n, 269n)."

which is about politics says there was precious little silver.

So that's not very helpful.

Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this?

Doug

"Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com...

No it doesn't. You will have that either later today or tomorrow. I will take time tonight to look further into two other relating documents(from Denmark resp. Helsingborg) and I am not finished with the writing.

Inger E

"Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com...

Eric, Fridrik is to be trusted no matter what. I guess you might ask your friend if he is willing to talk directly to Fridrik. If there is anything at all that doesn't hold in the secret document I am sure Fridrik will be the one to tell what more that needs to be done and how and if it's possible to get the information made public.

Inger E

Doug, if you had followed the ref I sent regarding the 3 works dealing with the Papal document where Ivar Bardson's delivery of the tithes for Greenland and Vinland for the years 1354-1364, you would have read about it in one of them long ago. In other words - I have sent the ref. 5 times the last year, one of the others here has sent it with comments as well. So much for following up the references and quotes I send to the group .....:-)

Inger E

Follow the online text link through

find the following quotation by Josef Fischer, among much other wisdom: "There is a twofold error in the statement that a valuable cup of Vinland masur wood is mentioned among the tithes of the diocese of Gardar dating from 1327. First, this (ciphus de nuce ultramarina) was not a part of the titles of the Vinland diocese of Gardar, but of Skara, a Swedish diocese; second this goblet was not of masur but of cocoanut."

So isn't it odd that we are now presented with the story of a valuable coconut-bowl brought by Ivar Bardsson (decades after 1327) as part of the tithes from Vinland.

"Liar" translates into Swedish as "lögnhals" or "lögnare"; I'll leave somebody more expert like Alan or Göran to supply a translation or idiomatic equivalent of "pants on fire".

David B.



So searching on inger ivar tithes silver gives 3 hits, one of them the post in this thread, the other 2 don't have the word bowl in them.

A search on Inger Ivar bowl doesn't turn up anything useful from Inter, but an old post by Eric does mention a bowl.

discussing Pope Urban's map: "While the English geographer who wrote Inventio Fortunatae described and mapped the world from the North Pole down to about 54°, Pope Urban s map continues from 54° south along the east coast of America. It is tempting to think that these two maps, which were made at about the same time, were intended to be seen as two parts of one and the same map. The geographer didn't necessarily have to have visited all locations himself. As mentioned, he made instrument measurements based on oral information as well. Thirty-three years earlier the pope had received the silver-footed bowl made from a nut shell. It doesn t conclusively prove anything, but it does give reason to suspect that someone had been much farther south at some earlier point."

Going back even further a post from Kaare Albert Lie "It is very reasonable to think that if influence went one way, it also went the other way. You are quite right. But this exchange must have taken place mainly among the Native Americans and the Norse Greenlanders. Communications between Greenland and Norway were not good, so apart from material objects as furs delivered at Bergen and the large nut "from the other side of the ocean" - the coconut that was made into a bowl with silver feet and handed over to the representative of the Pope, I know no other influences going east. If some could be found, it would be most interesting to learn about them."

In another post by him:

"In 1327 the papal tax-collector received a small bowl from the Norwegian-Swedish king. The feet of the bowl were made from silver, while the main part was "a nut come from the other side of the ocean". Experts have no doubt that it is a coconut. professor Johan Kielland-Lund jr. at the Agricultural College of Norway says that in order to find a nut of that size, one has at least to go as far south as to Florida. And to make a bowl on silver feet for the king, one would hardly have picked a coconut that was damaged from floating with the currents for a long time."

In other words, Inger hasn't mentioned it in any of her posts that I can find.

However, the old New Advent Encyclopedia disagrees:

" There is a twofold error in the statement that a valuable cup of Vinland masur wood is mentioned among the tithes of the diocese of Gardar dating from 1327. First, this (ciphus de nuce ultramarina) was not a part of the titles of the Vinland diocese of Gardar, but of Skara, a Swedish diocese; second this goblet was not of masur but of cocoanut. Nor are the arguments drawn from the amount and the character of the tithes levied in the diocese of Gardar for the Crusades more convincing. They are partly based on a faulty computation which estimates the tithes at triple the amounts, and partly on a mistaken conception of conditions in Greenland. As the sources testify, and modern excavations have shown, the Northmen of Greenland, as well as their Icelandic cousins, were active cattle breeders, and raised horses, cattle, sheep, and goats, so that they might easily pay their tithes in calf-skins."

By the way, where was Bardson in 1327?

Doug

Doug

It's worth bearing in mind that the original Latin "ultramarina" does not necessarily mean "from the other side of the ocean"- "overseas" would be a more neutral translation.

Playing in his parents' yard quite a lot of the time, I suspect.

David B.

David B, it's not an error - it's a fact. Noted by several wellknown persons at the time. Not to mention that an identical one according to old document one of the participater in this group sent me some years ago have been found in Greenland.

I don't give much for Joseph Fisher's bad background check. He probably wasn't capable in reading all needed languages to solve this question: Icelandic, Old-Norse, Medieval Swedish, Old-Danish, Latin and Dutch. Came to think about it I guess we aren't many who can read them all. I guess it's me and three others in the soc.history.medieval group, maybe one more.

Inger E "David B" skrev i meddelandet news:ELFwc.76$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net...

Doug, Have you or haven't you looked up and read the three works I refered to regarding Ivar Bardson's delivered tithes from Vinland? That's the question.

Not anything else. Please send me a private mail if you can't get hold of all three. I can forward it to a friend who have access to at least one in his daily work.

Inger E

"Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet news:1v6wjrocos2s9.1f57cuj7vluzk$. snipped-for-privacy@40tude.net...

>> is about medieval textiles, and says " Early in Icelandic

David B, it's not 'ultra-marina' in the Papal documents - It's written directly as tithes from 'Vinlandia' delivered by Ivar Bardson in Bergen 25th june 1364!

Inger E

"David B" skrev i meddelandet news:PrGwc.141$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net...

It did in the court case for which it was part of the evidence.

Eric Stevens

Several people are to be trusted. The problem is summarised by the old saying "I can trust you to keep a secret. It's the people who you tell I'm not so sure about". I'm in the business. I just don't tell people, no matter how trustyworthy they may be. Its a pity but that's the way part of the world works. I know Searles (for example) has exactly the same problem but in a different context.

Eric Stevens