Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper

That is comedy and you're wasting it on the humour impaired. Besides it could be two African swallows taking the coconut to Europe as a waterproof nest :-)

Reply to
George
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If all goes well you will be hearing it from their representant same as he told me. When ? Time isn't essential truth is. Don't you agree?

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Inger, you need to demonstrate this to be the case and get it accepted by others before you can claim it to be a fact. I'll look through the documents I'm being sent and see what I can find there, but of course they aren't primary sources.

Doug

Reply to
Doug Weller

Doug, contrary to you I have had the pleasure to receive Prime sources in the matter. I have had it as for my research, not to publish it in full nor to send it on. The texts you have had are written by scholars who had same access as I have. You better accept it no matter what you belive. The documents are wellknown in Catholic circles. I am not the one who needs to put proof forward. They have been known for the last 740 years. Well known. That those who aren't scholars of History and haven't had Religion as one of their minor subjects don't know of them doesn't change a bit.

Inger E

"Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@40tude.net...

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Things that are well known are, well, well known. If they are well known, then a lot of people know about them. Which means that scholars of history who write about those subjects will know these well known facts.

But evidently they don't, so then it can't be well known. Or can you point me to something by a recognised scholar who backs your claims?

Doug

Reply to
Doug Weller

Inger,

So you don't have any evidence that the bowl was made in Vinland. You have a 'what-if' about silver from the New World; you have a 'what-if' about coconuts from North America. But you haven't put that together to make a proof of your thesis.

In science, we pose all conceivable options to explain an issue under scrutiny. Then we test each option to see how it fits the facts. You haven't given me any reason to think that the bowl was fabricated in the New World, other than that it turned up in Norway as part of a collection of tithes from a certain bishopric.

Your mysterious and unverifiable reference to Indian silver mining has no value in this discussion unless it can be: (1) established to have occurred at a particular time and place; and (2) analysis of the silver in the subject cup shows it to have originated from that mine. Until that time, your argument is a big 'what-if'.

OTOH, we do know that a number of these bowls were floating around Europe at the relevant time, and that they were sometimes considered high-status items. We know that there was both immigration to Greenland, and also trade between Greenland and ports east of Greenland. We know that the conservative Greenlanders maintained customs, dress and technology from their home country.

If a bowl of a type found in Europe turns up in tithes from a bishopric that includes Greenland and, at least nominally, Vinland, _and_ the provenance of that bowl cannot be demonstrated to interested folk to have been from west of Iceland, then it is proper to continue to ask the question 'could it have come originally from Europe?'

Do you have any information that you can and will share with us to support your assertion (that's all it is, Inger) about it being made in the New World?

Tom McDonald

Reply to
Tom McDonald

In the case of Usenet, timely answers are as essential as truthful ones.

When did you stop beating your daughter?

tk

Reply to
t(nospam)kavanagh

Yes, but I don't think they had coconut palms in the Middle East back then. Just date palms.

Well a quick check reveals that they were available in Ceylon earlier than that (introduced about 100 BC, according to

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) so the Arabs could have brought some within the Viking range. They'd have been an expensive curiousity more likely than an article of commerce, though. Carried. overland, they don't last nearly as well as dates, raisins or rice, all of which give better value for weight or volume.

Al Moore

Reply to
Alan Moore

I suspect the coconut might be some off a tree or less that floated north on the great Gulf stream that flows north from areas that Coconuts grow past Iceland and Greenland and France and .... back home again.

This is like the shoes and balls that float around the pacific being released by a heavy storm upon a ship.

Consider the storms that smash into the Atlantic islands, and the U.S. that could make this viable.

All it takes is one creative mind. Then one is done.

Martin

Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn

That is what you say. Not I.

I don't abide by that Church - so it isn't here or there by me.

I don't think good logic is being used in this and to much denial going on.

Martin

Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn

It might have been carried by two African swallows, gripping the husk in their feet...

Reply to
John Wilkins

Martin H, if the coconut was from the locals at that time along Texas shore or if it was from the Caribian or elsewhere is of NO IMPORTANCE what so ever. Neither is it important if it was a Viking who before 1050 AD(end of Viking Age) brought it to Greenland or if it was the Norse living in Norumbega(I guess that you all by now at least have heard that the correct location was found and verified 30 years ago no matter that journals didn't dare print it).

The only important facts regarding the silvered coconut bowl FROM VINLAND!!! Is the silver and where the tithes was payed - in Vinland North America.

make no mistake about that, it's confirmed in documents of which among other Thor Heijerdahl spoke after having read them short after 2000 AD but the papers have been known for 740 years and several scholars wrote about them up to a month before WWII.

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Martin, who is denial? Not I nor the Vatican. Actually I had a mail 10 month ago from a representative of the Catholic Church in Scandinavia who asked me to verify that I had knowledge of same documents as they had. I had.

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

John, I guess you missed the two essential points: a) the silvered coconut bowl was SILVERED b) it was collected by Ivar Bardson in the Vinland dioceses in North America which was one of the two dioceses in NA under Gardar. not to mention the simple facts that several scholars have written from and discussed the Vatican documents and that one of the latest to do so was Thor Heijerdahl after having read them in the Vatican some years ago.

I myself got my first information about the papers in 1966.

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Alan and other. It's of no importance what so ever if the Vikings(up to 1050 AD btw) had or hadn't contact with coconuts in Eastern Europe. Accept facts:

  • A silvered coconut bowl was collected by Ivar Bardson in Vinland North America in 1360's as part of the Tiundetaka(the Greenlanders' name for the tithes from the dioceses under Gardar See.
*It's one of two known silvered coconut bowl from NA.
  • The silvered coconut bowl is documented by Pope's Cardinal to have been delivered by hand of Ivar Bardson to the Collector in Stavanger. The Cardinal was present.

There is no way you can flee from this. It's been known by the Papal Church for 740 years.

Inger E

"Alan Moore" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

I don't think that time is essential because while Usenet is a good tool it definitely hasn't any Official status.

Never done so. Don't know if you had that experience because why else would you ask that question. Idiom or not.

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Oh Doug, that scholars in UK might not know about them after 1939, not at all surprising. That it wasn't known in NA is a lie. You have yourself got at least one file from Göran showing that to be wrong.

I take it that you haven't understood a word? You have had files from one very 'recognised' scholar! You said you were to read what he sent. You haven't taken yourself time to do so and analyze it. Premisses needed and Premisses sufficient. It takes more than an hour or two you know.

What's most surprising is that you also missed or dismissed Thor Heijerdahl when he spoke about the Vinland tithes documents he seen in the Vatican. Bad Doug and definitely not schoalrly behavior from your side in this case!

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Ah, I see the "secret evidence" was all known about by one of the great self-publicists who wrote books rather than studying them. If Heyerdhal was involved, it must be hookie.

Reply to
Martyn Harrison

"t(nospam)kavanagh" says in news:ca5n1m$rgl$ snipped-for-privacy@hood.uits.indiana.edu:

Ouch!

Reply to
Philip Deitiker

Where do I mention North America? But I'm not sure I know what you mean. Are you claiming that recognised scholars in North America, today, back your claim?

None of the files I have have any evidence for contemporary scholarship. They have lots of evidence for what people thought over a hundred years ago. Can you be specific about which file you are referring to?

I have files from a very recognised scholar, that is true. Are you saying that he backs your claim? Or do you really mean that you think the files back your claim?

But I'm not asking about what people thought a hundred years ago, I am asking about scholarly opinion today. The scholar who sent me those files, for instance, what does he think?

Where can I read, in English, what Heyerdahl wrote? Does he mention the bowl? In any case I don't consider Heyerdahl to have akribi.

Doug

Reply to
Doug Weller

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