Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper

Eric Stevens says in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

This is pedantic silliness.

Reply to
Philip Deitiker
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All I'm saying is that *I* am no aware of other than old world silver

- mainly in the form of coins.

I am aware of there being silver among the copper in the Great Lakes area. I'm aware copper was traded/taken from Hudson Bay and Coppermine river area to Greenland. I have also seen claims of Greenland meteorite iron being found in the Great Lakes area (among other places).

Given the above and that the Norse were in Greenland they may well have traded for it from the native people - either on NA continent itself or with the Inuits. That it has found its way to Iceland that way. Only I know of no actual evidence of it being the case, no matter how plausible it is.

Reply to
Seppo Renfors

The Vikings were well known to trade goods with the people of Turkey. They came down the rivers in Russia.

Coconuts last a long time and likely were stores on long trips once traded for.

Martin

Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn

Martin H, while your point is good it's not correct in the case here. You see it was delivered by Ivar Bardson and it's noted to be delievered of him as part of the tithes he brought with him from Vinland on his voyage to Vinland and Greenland to collect the tithes for 1354-1364.

Inger E

"Mart>

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

"Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@not.net.au...

Others have evidence. I have documents from the time.

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

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Reply to
Martyn Harrison

Nonsense. Its what happens when a Judge issues a suppression order relating to evidence. The people concerned _just_do_not_tell_, unless of course they wish to risk going to jail.

In another context, the information is 'classified' (as confidential or secret).

Eric Stevens

Reply to
Eric Stevens

"Eric Stevens" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Yes Eric, but there might be a way to get the testresults in question out even then. You see since this directly involves in a positiv way Iceland's history the testresult might be let free if an other Official Dept asks for it. Might be worse trying.

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Eric Stevens says in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Eric, Inger has an overbearing reliance on 'secret' documents she cannot disclose, in such instances one document might have some value, however 100s which she will not disclose is not a problem of the courts, it's a problem of her ethics.

This is a pedantic sidetrack and a silly diversion when you know for a fact the real problem is in the integrity of the individual not the predisposition of her sources.

Reply to
Philip Deitiker

I will suggest that but, for the results to be meaningful, the silver in question will have to be identified and that will be the start of the whole story leaking out. I understand it involves large sums of money and the reputation of _very_important_ persons_ so I am not optimistic. In any case, don't hold your breath.

Eric Stevens

Reply to
Eric Stevens

"Eric Stevens" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

I am more optimistic. You see in this case it isn't important where the coin is today nor where they was and why they where analyzed. Only where they were found and that they are analyzed. I am pretty sure that Fridrik and one of our other friends in Iceland have the contacts needed for a Dept or the University to write an essay about the coins. That wouldn't have to include the secret information and I am pretty sure that in Iceland where the ancestors matters as much as the living this can be solved. In Sweden it would have been an other matter. Here alike cases has had to go up to Govermental level for scientists to be allowed under secrecy acts to make a scientific study of such type of material. But it has been done.

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

I think you missed it.

What does a hunter do with the bones of a hunt ? - Carve on them and make prizes out of them. You speak of an empty coconut-bowl (e.g. used up but hard shell) If you know Coconut - the shell is hard and dark. It can be carved.

These were used by pacific islanders - lived there - for both coconut meat and oil, but later fresh water.

So use of what is left over is very part of life.

And I have a lot of Viking blood myself. :-)

Mart> Martin H,

Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn

Or this :

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Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn

Martin H, if you have Viking blood in you is irrelevant to the fact that the valuble coconut bowl only was one of two known coming from the New World in Pre Columbian days. Or do you believe your proven(?) Viking genes make a difference on that fact?

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Martin H, so now your making fun of the Catholic Church. Wouldn't you be better off accepting that Ivar Bardson did deliever the Bowl in 1364. Does that fact hurt your pet-horses?

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Inger,

From references presented here, it appears that there were many bowls made around coconut shells in Europe around that time. One site even said that they were common enough that some were owned by commoners; but that they were often given as gifts, and gave the owner (and of course the giver) some status.

Given this, why could the bowl(s) not have been brought to Greenland from who owned such bowls? Or why could the bowl(s) not have been given as a gift to someone (perhaps a clergy member or settlement leader) from someone in Europe?

Importation of such bowls from Europe needs to be ruled out before your view of a North American or Caribbean provenance for the coconut can be accepted. What evidence do you have that this has been considered and rejected?

Tom McDonald

Reply to
Tom McDonald

Tom, I think you are naysayer acting like a strawman. You simply haven't got it have you: No matter if there where hundreds of coconut bowls in Europe in 14th century, No matter where all the other but two orgined from, At least one of the two silvered coconut bowls origined from Vinland. That's very very well documented. Re. the other our friend here in group Goran Baarenhielm once told me was found in Iceland. Guess Goran might be able to fill in the details for that one.

You have to accept fact. On a ship leaving Bergen 1354, passing Iceland was Ivar Bardson and Paul Knutson. On board was Ivar Bardson's Icelandic collegue - the tithes collector for Iceland as Ivar was for the dioceses under Gardar Greenland. The dioceses in Iceland were two - Hola and Skalholt. The dioceses under Gardar were three at the time in question and Vinland was one of them. It's also proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Ivar Bardson did return with ALL of Vinland's tithes for 1354-1364 and the other tithes for the Greenland See's dioceses AND that among the Vinland tithes items were the silvered coconut bowl directly brought over the Atlantic. That's very very well documented in Papal papers!

For your own sake you better accept that and work from there. There is no use in disputing a hill you find while working the wood no matter if it's not marked on your map. We have had enough of that drivel behavior. Not everyone can perform the act of an OT(orientation)-organisation here in Sweden who ordered the hill blown away before the orienteers from several country start their game.....

Inger E

"Tom McD>

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Inger,

I'm not questioning whether someone brought the bowl back to Norway as part of Peter's Pence. I am wondering why you assume that it was *made* in the New World? You haven't addressed that at all.

You also haven't addressed the possibility that the bowl was originally brought to Greenland and/or Vinland from Europe, and was returned to Norway when the Norse in the west had to find valuables to pay the tithes. Unless you can clearly demonstrate that the bowl was made in the west, from a coconut that derived from North America, you have only a 'what-if' scenario. Your assumptions are no better than anyone else, and if you don't address the possible options, you can't be acting in a scholarly manner on this issue.

Tom McDonald

Reply to
Tom McDonald

Tom, your questioning is a strawman-alike questioníng. Now I happen to know which Indian tribe that mined the silver, for that an for the silver in Icelandic artifacts. That doesn't alter the simple fact that Ivar Bardson on travelling the voyage for collecting the Tiundetaka(yes that was then name for the tithes 'taken'(=collected) from the dioceses under Gardar Greenland. Ivar Bardson's voyage took several years, as did the other known collector's voyages when Greenland and Vinland was on the agenda. Latest documented collection was from 1500's(!) btw.

Fact is that the silvered coconut bowl came from the tithes collected in Vinland North America. Not Greenland. Not Iceland nor anywhere else in the Old World.

You better try to live with that instead of trying to find 'what if' scenarios. Such doesn't alter the case at all.

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

OK, which one?

tk

Reply to
t(nospam)kavanagh

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