ebay feedback -- is this broken?

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:22:42 -0700, "Harold & Susan Vordos" vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:

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Hey, Harold, look. If you have something to say, out with it man! Don't hold back!

snip...

Gee, I don't know, Nick. I hate to burden my friends.

Harold

snip---------

We not only bought from a seller with excellent feedback (over 600 positives, no negatives at that point), but we did everything to avoid getting stuck with a piece that was not as represented. We went so far as to ask before bidding if the item in question had any issues with condition. We received this in reply:

Hi Susan,

No Problem, I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. I have inspected this vase as well as the Daum Nancy Landscape Vase carefully and they are both in fine condition. There are no chips, cracks, repairs or damage whatsoever. I hope this information is helpful and thanks again.

Sincerely, Mary Dowd Myers Auction Gallery

If a seller is trying to screw you, you are at their mercy. Because they have had an excellent record, when you complain, everyone thinks you're nuts. The vase in question has been repaired, and very poorly. She out and out lied to us, as well as in the listing. Not only did they not disclose the repair, they also went far out of their way to make sure that the multiple photographs that were included in the listing had the repair in shadows so it wasn't obvious. Crooks are crooks and can't be trusted, makes no difference how honest they may claim to be, nor does it make a difference how cautiously you approach their offerings. Until such time that ebay kicks people like this out of the system, ebay will remain suspect.

To leave a seller a neg, he'd have to fail in more than one aspect of

Yep, and that's what we did. Now we have a negative because we dealt with crooks that refuse to make right what they did to us, and paid us yet another compliment by giving us a negative feedback because they are thieves.

What conclusion could one draw except that

Michael J. Myers and Mary Dowd Myers Antiques & Fine Arts

listed and sold an item fraudulently. They are criminals guilty of fraud.

What they don't know is we don't care about the negative feedback. That we have a good or bad feedback record on ebay no longer matters, because we have had more than our fill of dishonest people and no longer spend our money there.

Harold

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 04:41:53 -0700, Grant Erwin vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:

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As this post is OT I will pop in here...

I just saw some NiMH cells for sale by a dealer.

So I go to the item. It says starting bid $14.99. Bids 0 Current bid $14.99

I bid $15.00, but get told that I have to bid at least $15.49. OK Bits weird, but still a good price. So I bid $15.49.

Sorry, you have been outbid.

This is a private auction, so the bidder will not be made known to me.

Wha?

You must bid at least $16.49, because the bid is now $15.99

OK. Bid $16.49. Still and OK price around here, and saves a trip to town.

Sorry, you have been outbid.

So I asked on the chat forums on ebay. I was told all about the bidding process, but nobody seemed to realise that I was bidding above the nominated Current Bid in each case.

I went back and had a look. 3 bids. Highest $16.99. But I must have made 3 bids! There appeared to be phantom bids.

So I bid $17.49. Outbid.

Stuff this!

Then somebody mentioned sniping on the forums.

The bidding stopped at $19.50, and timed out. I genuinely believe I was simply going to be "outbid" no matter what I did.

Who is doing this? Is it legal? Why are private auctions allowed. Should I simply avoid them? They seem to leave themselves open to sniping and "padding" by the vendor.

For you info, and any comments.

That only works if you're following an item, and I don't. Most times what I was looking for was how much interest was shown in a particular type of item, not too much for what it sold for. As most of what I look for are old tools or machines, I have a pretty good idea how much an item is worth, and how much rust will drop that price. I've done pretty well at garage and rummage sales, also working with the local scrapyard in cleaning out garages and barns, and I don't feel that either the one I'm buying from or myself is getting ripped. Prices on ebay do NOT reflect reality.

I guess that was my point - I don't think the above statement (that one is as bad as the other) really *is* true. I would NEVER EVER EVER give paypal, or anyone else, account information.

But I do use ebay from time to time - moderately sucessfully.

That change (for completed items) happened almost a half year ago. I think I even commented on it here a few weeks after it happened. I do use completed items as a guide under some circumstances to guess how high something will sell, or to see if somebody is shilling their auctions. Sometimes it's the *number* of bids at completion that tells the story.

But my guess is that ebay realized that dealers were using it to get comps, for free - and that it was putting a drain on their server horsepower. So they plugged the leak.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

Sounds like a standard proxy bid--someone bids what they want for the item, early, and ebay automatically matches other bids until it hits that limit... --Glenn Lyford

Greetings and Salutations... Ok..I will climb on this soapbox ONE more time...

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:57:11 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman" wrote:

We disagree here. If this was the design concept that EBAY had, why would they set up separate feedback records for both seller and buyer? I believe that the feedback for each should Represent their HALF of the deal. Therefore...at the point that you, as a seller, receive a payment, you are ethically obligated to give me, the buyer, feedback that reflects YOUR half of the transaction. At the point that I, the buyer, receive the product, I am either obligated to leave positive feedback, or, if there are problems, give you, the seller, an opportunity to deal with the problems. At the point that any problems are either resolved or have come to an impasse, I am obligated to leave appropriate feedback. If that means that you, the seller leave me positive feedback, and, I, the buyer, leave you negative feedback, that is Ok. That reflects the reality of the deal. It started out ok, but went kind of sour.

I realize that there are some folks that are going to be a pain in the ass, no matter what. Sounds like this was a case.

And how many times have you ACTUALLY left positive feedback on a deal that went sour?

That is a problem, but, can be helped by always using a shipping service that provides tracking...UPS/Fed Ex/DHL are NOT that much more expensive than the post office, and, DO provide real tracking.

My problem with this is that it feels very much as if the seller is holding feedback "hostage", and, will give me the EXACT same sort of feedback that I give them. Now...if I communicate well after an auction, pay promptly, and, make an honest effort to deal with any problems, I think that I should get, at worst, neutral feedback, no matter WHAT feedback I give to the seller. After all, the "contract" between buyer and seller through Ebay that keeps getting thrown around is nothing more than an agreement that I, as a buyer, will send the seller a chunk of cash promptly for the item, and, the seller agrees to ship the product auctioned off to me promptly after adequate payment is made. This is, of course, a religious argument, in that both of us are "right", and Ebay does not give a flying flip as long as they keep raking in millions of dollars a day in fees. However, the feedback system, which worked great when Ebay was young, and everyone was enthusiastic about it, IS broken, and, I have written them with a couple of suggestions to help "fix" it. I have suggested these changes: 1) Require that initial feedback be left in a timely fashion* by sellers after they have shipped the product to the buyer. 2) Require that buyers leave initial feedback in a timely fashion* after receiving the item. 3) Allow two updates to the feedback as long as the transaction are still visible in the database. Right now, only one is allowed, and that only in the case of negative feedback.

(* - "timely fashion" is probably open to argument, but, probably a day or two, up to a week, would be adequate)

Actually, I would also prefer that feedback be more than

I remember I had this same discussion with you a while back. I both buy and sell, and there's no way as a seller I'd leave positive feedback as soon as I'm paid. I've had a few goofball buyers who, long after they got the item, suddenly decided the item condition as described in the auction wasn't what they were looking.

A buyer who pays quickly but sends vulgar harrassing emails afterwards, or tells other people I cheated them, or leaves negative feedback that doesn't reflect reality does not make for a good transaction. People buying stuff aren't automatic cash machines, they're humans who somtimes do strange things.

How would you feel about a seller who shipped the item promptly, and in good shape, but left you a neg without reason and sent you unhinged emails afterwards? It's the same situation. As a buyer I'm not leaving positive feedback to that seller, because the item wouldn't be worth the crap.

I do not hold peopel hostage with feedback. I do, however, need to hear from them that they got the item how they feel before I leave anything. If something goes wrong that involves returns, shipping damage, etc I'll still leave positive feedback as long as the other party's reasonable.

I do think the new mutual removal system is broken. It now gives dishonest sellers and buyers and reason beyond spite to leave unwarranted negatives.

GTO(John)

I'll never buy from you. You *do* hold the buyer hostage, and you have an honesty problem. In fact, it looks like you can't even admit this to yourself. No problem, there are lots of buyers.

I'm going to address this issue by setting up a second buyer-only, don't-care- about-feedback account. Any scumbag who refuses to give me a positive feedback within a few days of me paying is going to get a negative feedback. I hate to do this, but this is the next step in the broken game. I have *never* given anyone undeserved negative feedback, in fact in over 200 transactions I've only left one negative feedback ever. I'm getting sick and tired of people just refusing to use the feedback properly, and rationalizing it with the sort of nonsense spouted above.

Grant

Is the purpose of purchasing something on eBay:

If (1), then who cares about when the seller posts fb? If (2), then go and buy a few thousand stamps (or whatever) one at a time.

Sheesh. Who cares about feedback? No-one with any sense believes it anyway.

-- Jeff

All right, so enlighten me. I _have_ had a couple auctions where, post sale, a buyer started harrasing me every day about something that was either described in the auction or something they did. I don't care how quickly someone pays, if I have to report them to their ISP for abusive (and once a stream of ethnic slurs) emails to get the bullshit to stop, that is _not_ holding up their end of the deal. That kind of case, and when I never get paid in the first place, are virtually the only situations where I leave negative feedback.

If the buyer is happy with it, if the buyer is unhappy because of something I did, or if they don't like the item and want it return it for a real reason, they _will_ get perfectly positive feedback. I don't need to get feedback first, I just want to know the deal's over.

Other than folks who never paid and were in the minus figures already, I have had almost no buyer problems in the hundreds of auctions I've sold stuff in. I've had a few cases where something went wrong and I made good and everyone was happy. I've never used feedback or lack thereof to leverage my position. Then I've had those two or three head cases who give buyers a bad name.

I have no problem with you not buying from me, as there are a few hundred other people who have been pleased with it. As a buyer of almost an equal amount of stuff to what I've sold, I know where you're coming from and how dissapointing it is to be on the end of a raw deal. I don't mess around when I buy something, either.

GTO(John)

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 02:23:35 GMT, Glenn Lyford vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:

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OK. But shouldn't that bid show as the current bid? This is what I can't understand. As far as I can see from the descriptions, if I enter a winning bid, that bid _is_ a proxy bid, but it should show. When I bid in the standard manner, ebay says to me "Ebay will bid for you up to your limit" and AFAICS, places that bid as the current bid.

hmmmmmmmm ....doing a bit of reading.."Keeping it confidential from other bidders". So what _is_ the "Current bid" if my bids are proxy anyway. Sorry. I need to talk to ebay support. This is not your job and thanks for the jolt in the right direction.

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 02:23:35 GMT, Glenn Lyford vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:

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Hehe interesting choice of wording Glen....bids what they _want_ for the item?

All bids on ebay are proxy bids.

If you place a bid for a million dollars and the item is at 9.99, it displays at the next bid increment, or $10.49. That is the current bid. If no one else bids you get it for the 10.49 The amount of your maximum bid will not show until someone else tops it. When you placed your bids, someone had already bid more than you. When ebay said you must bid at least 17.49, they didn't mean that would be the winning bid, but that 17.49 was the next bid increment.

Paul K. Dickman

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:45:25 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman" vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:

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Thanks Paul.

Ok. What you say gels with what I experienced. As far as I can see you have explained it better than ebay did .

It is certainly not the way I am used to auctions, where you know what is required to be beaten to get the object.

But I am not shooting the messenger. What you say gels, as I say.

Now I know what is supposed to happen I feel a lot more comfortable. I simply place a bid for a million dollars!

It was a pity that it was (a) only my second attempt (b) different from the first (c) a "private auction" (which the first also was not) so I felt really "put upon" by some secret "lurker".

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:45:25 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman" vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email Slowly light dawns.

I saw Ebay as the auctioneer, me as the buyer and the vendor as ....well.

So I saw the auctioneer as the proxy. I have seen this done and believe me the auctioneer never stands there letting the bids go up while they say "Sorry we still have a higher bid" etc

So to me, what us being called a "proxy bid" is "the bid I hold in my mind not to go past" when I am at a "real auction.

Anyway. Thanks for all the explains. I guess it was one of those (too frequent) times when it had to be hammered up my bum till my brain caught on.

Actually this does happen. An auctioneer at a "real" auction may try to generate interest in an item by allowing the crowd to bid on it at a price that is lower than his proxy bid.

The auctioneer feels that if he says "I already have a proxy bid of $1,000.00 who will offer $1,100?" That he is less likely to generate bidding interest than he will if he starts bidding at $100 and lets the live audience bid it up.

However, I also believe that this depends upon the jurisdiction. It may not be permitted in some states/countries.

I live in Illinois and I have been at several live auctions where the bidding ended with the auctioneer saying "Well I'm sorry guys but you all lose because I have a proxy bid in my back pocket that beats all of you."

The live audience tends to get irritated when this happens.

A proxy bid at a live auction is a flat out bid at that number. If I give an auctioneer a proxy bid of $1,000.00 for an item, then I will either get that item for $1,000.00 or I will not get it.

A proxy bid on eBay is quite different. On eBay, my proxy bid is more like a market order given to a stock broker. It's a "number not to exceed." I instruct eBay to raise my bid just high enough to outbid all comers but do not go over my proxy bid amount.

You are correct. And at a real auction you have to do that yourself standing on your feet. The auctioneer will not do that for you. On the other hand, eBay will.

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:28:31 -0500, George vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:

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Thanks for that George. As I said, having been to auctions where your proxy bid _is_ your bid with the auctioneer, I was confused.To me a proxy is an agent that I send along to bid for me with instrustions to go no higher. Ebay is the auctioneer.