Electrical

In my process of adding an EV charging station I had wanted to add another 20 amp 220V outlet for occasional use of other 220V equipment in the garage. (band saw, radial arm saw, non business CNC machine, etc) With the 50 amp breaker for the charging station the sub panel is now full. They make high density breakers (4 poles in the space of 2), but I was unable to find one for this panel.

I know the odds of one of you being specifically familiar is slim, but its worth a shot.

Before somebody says, "Did you try Home Depot?" in a dry nasally voice. Yes I tried all the usual easy suspects.

The sub panel is a GE PowerMark Gold Load Center. I am looking for a drop in 4 pole high density breaker in the configuration of 20/20-20/20. It looks like the Siemens breakers with a UNV suffix may be a correct fit, but the outside poles on the only one I found were 15 amp. All the existing circuits are 20 amp. The panel is currently being used as a sub panel, and is full at the moment. Other Siemens breakers I found that appeared to be a match will not physically fit. They have a blocker plate on the connections, and the physical gap in the middle is to narrow.

I did also look for a GE solution since its a GE panel, but was unable to find anything at all. I would ask them if they had a solution I had not found, but they make accepting all cookies and agreeing to receive SPAM a condition of contact.

The suffix UNV I found with the 15 amp poles was at Lowes. I did not physically try it, but visually it appears to have the correct gap to fit around the plastic rejection tab in the panel, the correct depth for the contact lugs, and correct snap in length when compared directly with the 50 amp GE breaker I used for the EV station.

Reply to
Bob La Londe
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As I sit out here trying to find another breaker I just received a couple images via text from my wife. She has plugged the new EV station into her car for the first time and it appears to be working.

Reply to
Bob La Londe

Similar-ish thought about outbuilding here (UK - 230V). If want it on a line protected with a time-delayed higher fault current Residual Current Device - so the RCD in the outbuilding would trip first but the cable from the house to the outbuilding is still sufficiently protected - then could have a separate single-isolator/single-RCD/single-MCB [MCB == Miniature Circuit Breaker] box having power coming off the make distribution board just after its incoming isolator.

You'd be adding a third Residual Current Device in the "Consumer Unit" (distribution board)

  • each RCD takes up two spaces on the rail - takes up space
  • another live and neutral cable from isolator to "special" RCD

so separate box suggested as most elegant solution.

Reply to
Richard Smith

Sorry, can't help. My house has a 200A service for no longer used electric heat so there's plenty of space for welding breakers, and the State's new registration surcharge for electric vehicles killed my interest in a PHEV. This spring our electric rate was $0.30 per KWH, now it's 'down' to $0.22. When the people across the street gave me permission to cut dead trees for firewood on their large property I installed a woodstove. I grew up with coal/steam heat and am used to a cool house in the morning.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

Nice! So all the work wasn't in vain😉

Without looking at the panel and doing research...

Can you replace a couple of your 20amp singles with tandem/duals which should free up a spot for a 20amp 2-pole 240v?

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Reply to
Leon Fisk

Those actually look like they might work. There appears to be adequate clearance for the plastic rejection tabs in the panel. I can't tell from the photos if there is a blocker plate on the panel lug or not, but at 15-18 bucks I can buy one just to find out.

Reply to
Bob La Londe

Its my understanding in the UK you have a simpler single voltage 220V (nominal) service for residential and non-industrial.

In the US residential and non-industrial is usually split phase. We have a single phase coming in, but its got a half tap at the service transformer for 120V nominal which is what most small to medium devices are designed to work with. The 120V device can be wire from either leg to the half tap or neutral. It makes for some interesting conversations with other do-it-yourselfers. In the past there were house which only received half phase. That is their service entrance was 120V nominal only.

I may not have the terms exactly right, but that's the gist of it. Like I said, it makes wiring in extra stuff interesting.

Reply to
Bob La Londe

My concern is that they may have either a blocker plate or they may be the alternate style breaker connection like the one linked below.

Fourth Image Down:

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I've been excited to have found a solution more than once in this search only to discover I've been stymied again.

Reply to
Bob La Londe

The images used by the Ebay seller are the exact same images from this Home Depot listing. Compare the white numbers on them🙄

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Reply to
Leon Fisk

You are right - 230V single-phase from the local substation feeding the area. You went with Tesla's recommendation of 60Hz which is clearly "just right" for long-distance transmission. Where out 50Hz is unnecessarily slower and increases the size of transformers, etc.

The only 110V we use in the UK isn't even "normal supply" - on building sites we have centre-tapped transformers so in-effect have

-55V and +55V. Very safe.

230V is a bit too much for construction sites, for sure. Residual Current Devices make 230V power tools acceptable for domestic work.
Reply to
Richard Smith

Not always 60Hz though after reading about the 1965 US blackout

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where it mentions some areas as 25Hz, also
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which gives a wide variety of frequencies early on. IIRC it was mentioned UK Europe went

50Hz as it was better for motors and 60Hz in the US as arc lights were more stable.
Reply to
David Billington

I cut a percentage of my firewood into what I call "overnighters" , and they can be some bigass chunks - my stove door opening is 11"x 11" and the fire box is 24" long . I hate waking up to a cold house ... Looking at predictions for a strengthening el nino I think I better get more busier with the firewood collecting . As far as Bob's breaker , I wish I could help . I've still got 5 open slots in my 200A main panel , and I think 2 slots in the 100A sub panel out in the shop . I educated guesstimated what I wanted to do then doubled the size/breaker capacity . Good thing too .

Reply to
Snag

I wouldn't let a union 'trician within a hundred yards of my house . But then I was a Navy electrician , and they have actual standards besides time in position and timely payment of union dues .

Reply to
Snag

In the US residential and non-industrial is usually split phase. We have a single phase coming in, but its got a half tap at the service transformer for 120V nominal which is what most small to medium devices are designed to work with. The 120V device can be wire from either leg to the half tap or neutral. It makes for some interesting conversations with other do-it-yourselfers. In the past there were house which only received half phase. That is their service entrance was 120V nominal only.

I may not have the terms exactly right, but that's the gist of it. Like I said, it makes wiring in extra stuff interesting.

------------------------- I remember the single drop and 60A screw-in fusebox. My father bought and remodeled old houses as a sideline, I think because it gave him problems he could solve with a hammer. He became pretty good at everything except 3-way light switches. I might have helped him more if my role hadn't been the nail.

I would describe the US residential service as coming from a center-tapped transformer secondary winding with the center tap defined as neutral and grounded, thus the two ends of the secondary are 120V at 180 degrees apart, each is 120V to neutral and 240V to the other one. In the breaker box the connecting tabs to the two hot "phases" are interleaved such that a double breaker connects to both for 240V, a single breaker to one for 120V, and the single breakers above and below it are the opposite phase so hopefully the electrician will more or less balance the loads between them as he works his way down.

Large loads such as the kitchen stove, water heater and clothes dryer use double breakers for 240V, wall outlets and room overhead lighting uses single ones for 120V, with the loads connected in series unlike the British loop that feeds from both ends. The wall outlets and switched ceiling lighting in each room are supposed to be on different breakers so the room can be lit with one while the other is shut off for maintenance. Back when I learned this the wall outlet circuits were wired for 20A and the lighting for 15A, with thinner wire. Sometimes a wall switch controls an outlet meant for a lamp, especially if there isn't an overhead ceiling lamp which could cause a leak in the insulation.

There can be variations. My house has a separate meter and breaker box for the water heater which is billed at a lower rate. The main drop is 200A for the baseboard electric heating that was expected to be cheap nuclear in

1970. Rooftop solar uses a different meter that records power bought and sold by the customer separately. Determining the direction of AC is actually easy, a phone does it with voice to send and receive on a single pair of wires.

Another difference from British practice is the fuse isn't in the plug, unless it's a built-in ground fault interrupter. It protects the house wiring, the appliance is its designers problem. Old fuse boxes were meant to have the center contact of the screw-in fuse hot so that once you unscrewed the fuse part way the more accessible threaded shell was safe to accidentally touch, which it wouldn't be with a ring main. Holders for cylindrical glass automotive fuses that can be used for 120V should be wired the same way, hot at the inner end.

You can identify which breaker controls an outlet without a helper by plugging in a vacuum cleaner that vibrates the floor and can be heard from far away.

Although house wiring is sometimes considered two phase, that term is formally reserved for separate circuits 90 degrees apart which was Tesla's original sine and cosine supply that created a smoothly rotating magnetic field to eliminate DC motor brushes. It required four distribution wires while 3 phases at 120 degrees apart could be done more cheaply with three and so replaced it.

Industrial schematics label the phases and the wires themselves L1, L2 and L3 (L=Line) ,and each succeeding wire connection takes an increasing numerical prefix, so that the wires coming from the 3 phase breaker may be

1L1, 1L2, 1L3, then 2L1, 2L2, 2L3 from a contactor to a motor, etc. The parallel lines that look like a capacitor are normally open relay contacts that should have their associated Control Relay (CR) indicated with a circle for the coil. The N-like variant is a normally closed contact, normally meaning powered off. This is called a ladder diagram because the power lines are usually vertical and the relay contacts and coils etc drawn horizontally between them.

-jsw

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

I wouldn't let a union 'trician within a hundred yards of my house . But then I was a Navy electrician , and they have actual standards besides time in position and timely payment of union dues . Snag

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I've read the Navy isolates all the power, no grounded Neutral, so a single short to the hull won't bring down the system.

Did you learn about the power failure on the battleship USS South Dakota at Guadalcanal? Was it really sabotage? I thought the two generators were cross-connected without synchronizing them. The damage report was written much later and contains known errors.

The fires on South Dakota masked Washington beyond and she scored on Kirishima with amazing accuracy. Usually battleships hit each other with about 2% of the shells, Washington's radar-controlled night gunnery was closer to 25%. That and the one-sided battle at Leyte are the only evidence of how good our battleships were. It suggests what the US battleships at Leyte might have done to Yamato if she hadn't turned back. Although they may not have been able to defeat her armor they could have destroyed the superstructure and ability to aim, which had shut down Bismarck.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

Just make good buddies with a union journeyman electrician.

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Then be prepared to hear all his war stories about customers and inspectors. BTDT

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

When we got on line in 1948, on electrician was getting a high percentage of the wireing jobs in an area where no one knew much about electrical equipment. His price for wireinng a house was based on one cieling light and one wall plug per room; stairway lighting control was a pull chain socket with a long string to the lower floor. Incoming electrical service was two wire 120V feeding a two pole disconnect with two 15A. fuses. Believe it or not, this was approved by the inspector (he retired shortly thereafter)

Reply to
Gerry

I think it was aroun 1950 when Toronto and a large surrounding area switched over from 25 to 60 Hz. I remember visiting Mother'family and noticing how thier ligts all blinked. It cost the supplier a fortune to replace all the affected equipment!

Reply to
Gerry

I think it was aroun 1950 when Toronto and a large surrounding area switched over from 25 to 60 Hz. I remember visiting Mother'family and noticing how thier ligts all blinked. It cost the supplier a fortune to replace all the affected equipment!

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I don't have references that explains why aircraft chose 400Hz to reduce iron core weight and electric trains, the biggest early users, used 25Hz for some good reason. Fukushima couldn't get enough Diesel generator and external power for the reactor cooling pumps at their frequency or supplement it with power at the other frequency, which the media misunderstood and reported as a problem with incompatible plugs.

The sine function is a one-dimensional representation of rotation at constant speed, such as the height of a bicycle tire valve when the wheel is coasting, neither gaining nor losing speed or energy. Thus it's the AC equivalent of a steady state. The cosine is the same, at a right angle to the sine, and the two together define and can recreate a circle, and as electrical waveforms they can transmit and fully reconstruct rotary motion theoretically without loss.

Single phase AC is like power from bicycle pedals that only push up and down and need a boost to get started, which extra start windings in a motor provide.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

That's part of it , part of the reason is electrolysis . Makes repairs lots of fun if you have to work on a hot 450V circuit .

I've never heard about the South Dakota problems , but bringing another generator that size on line without syncing will make one hell of a noise as both units destroy themselves . I forget which port we were in when the guys who hooked up shore power got a pair of cables crossed . About 30 seconds after the switch the Chief Machinist Mate grabbed me and said "Get this boat back on ships power NOW I've got several million dollars worth of power plant all running backward and it's gonna get ugly real fast . When I engaged the generators the whole damn ship (400 foot long destroyer) jumped . I figure the only reason it didn't jump when they switched was because they were slow enough for motors and stuff to wind down .

Reply to
Snag

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