Electrical - what's wrong with this?

On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 18:41:42 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"


Probably but as water is, what? 1/3rd oxygen. "Dihydrogen monoxide", which is terrible stuff. I read somewhere that everyone that consumes even tiny amounts is either already dead, or will die.
--
cheers,

John B.
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Some chemists say that the correct term is not "dihydrogen monoxide", but for specific reasons, Hydrogen Hydroxide.
H(OH), in sufficient concentration, will also prevent oxygen from being absorbed by the lungs. Many people have died from H(OH)'s effects on oxygen absorption.
It's dangerous, damaging stuff! Hundreds of Billions of Dollars worth of damage to property and infrastructure can be attributed to exposure to it.
It's even been known to wear holes through iron well pipes.
Lloyd
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Even worse is H2S Hydrogen Sulfide.
It is as small as water, can't mechanically filter it. It can out gas from water and attack the lungs and blood system. Quick painful death. e.g. poison gas well.
The only filtration method is over silver metal. Or massive oxygenation. Banks of water towers that spray fine mist.
The Hydrogen is so small it invades iron and steel and plastic pipe. In Fe materials - rust and exfoliation occurs. Death of a water system by a thousand cuts. The sulfur ionizes to SO2 rotten egg gas. It helps rot out copper pipes and by stealing Oxygen from the water, More hydrogen kills pipes. The free oxygen attacks the pipe and creates FeO a black powder with a metallic slick on ceramic..... Martin
On 7/4/2015 6:56 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

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In order -- yes, it's worse.

Silver is hardly the only way, or even the preferred way to remove it. Using a silver-bearing filter requires very expensive recycling of the silver sulfide created, and it's a pain as well as expensive.
H2S can be removed by chlorination (which some folks don't like), converting the sulfur to insoluble sulfides that CAN be filtered mechanically. It can also be removed by so-called "manganese green sand" filters. Or, as you suggested above, by aeration.
That method doesn't USE oxygenation, although that occurs as a byproduct of the spraying. H2S has a high vapor pressure. Break the water up into small enough droplets or thin enough sheets, and H2S will gas-off by itself. Residence time in the tank with the top surface exposed to circulating air after the first aeration improves the degree of 'desulfurization'. The downside of the method is that it requires two pumps: One for lift-and-spraying, the other to move water from the desulfuring tank to the pressure tank.
No "banks of water towers" are required. We have strong "sulfur water" here. For residential service, a single 500-gallon 'square' (high as wide) tank (heavily ventilated and screened) with four 'sheeting nozzles' spraying the fresh well water over the top, and plenty of air circulation serves fine to remove all of it.

Nope... "rotten egg gas" is H2S. SO2 is "sour" (acid in smell and taste) If SO2 is released or created, it combines with water to form sulfurOUS acid, that is pretty corrosive. It's not a natural product of sulfur water aeration, and seldom is present in well water.
I will agree that 'sulfur water' rots pipes out faster than 'good' water, but only if it GETS INTO your COPPER or brass pipes. We remove the H2S before it gets into anything but the iron lift pipe and first pump (iron, also). HS2 doesn't tend to affect iron much after that very thin 'black layer' you mention forms.
Mine's only about 17 years old right now...still going strong, though; no leaks, no corrosion. And when I had the lift pump off for replacement (due to lightning) about a year ago, NO visible diminishment of the wall thickness of the pipe.
Lloyd
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On Sat, 04 Jul 2015 20:57:04 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

I'm not sure about treating water but "sour gas", i.e. hydrocarbon gas containing significant amounts of H2S, is usually treated using amines in trayed columns which can also remove CO2. The system uses an amine-water mix as an absorbent.
By the way, H2S in small concentrations smells like rotten eggs, but in concentrations dangerous to life it deadens the sense of smell so it effectively has no odor :-)

--
cheers,

John B.
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Small well Lloyd The hydrogen is small and gets into iron standpipes of the firehouse and valves as well as black iron pipes in homes .... The black is black oxide. It flakes off, being super fine and makes the pipe wall thinner.
The volume of an 8" small pipe is larger than your well. I'm talking about city size wells for filling tall towers.
The volume is much higher than you figure. Our little town doesn't have the problem, but the main pipes are running 600 PSI in a 16" pipe. We have new building near our place - across the wire fence.. They drove heavy equipment over a pipe that jammed down into the main trunk. It was better than a fountain on the 4th.
Martin
On 7/4/2015 8:57 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

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I don't know what you figure I figure... I didn't argue with hydrogen embrittlement. At 600psi, all sorts of things happen that don't at lower pressures.
What I argued with was someone's (yours?) statement that S02 was the "rotten egg smell". It's not.
Lloyd
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Whatever. Martin
On 7/9/2015 5:33 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

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Do I correctly interpret your "whatever" to say that in your opinion SO2 IS the 'rotten eggs smell'. Or is it some other mental shrug you're doing.
If you are maintaing that, I'll give you a simple experiment that will generate all the SO2 you want, so you can smell it, and see if it reminds you of rotten eggs.
Just make a pile of about a teaspoonful flowers of sulfur on a fireproof surface. Heaping it up as high as possible will help.
Gently play a torch flame over the pile. It'll start to look molten in drops, then turn a reddish color, then brown, the parts will go back to yellow and catch fire with a faint blue flame. It will flicker and lick, and you may have to keep the torch at the ready to keep it burning.
The gas coming off that blue fire is sulfur dioxide. Take a SMALL sniff, and get back with us on your impressions.
Lloyd
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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message

A lead-acid battery smells slightly of SO2.but not H2S with the filler caps off.
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This isn't worth the work to prove anything. I know what kills me on an easy day. And I have talked to large and small developers of housing and work sites. Posion gas is dangerous and starts out as rotten eggs and then you loose the smell.
You are not allergic to sulphur like I. I'm sensitive to it. I'm talking about H2S not So2. And that is the difference.
Martin
On 7/10/2015 6:22 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

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Here is the relevant corrosion mechanism those articles omitted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_cell "Concentration cell corrosion occurs when two or more areas of a metal surface are in contact with different concentrations of the same solution."
-jsw
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Jim, First, the phenonemnon you're referring to almost never happens in a 'mixing' environment. Second, the degree of 'concentration' must be significant -- not horribly high, but higher than what you'd get from differences in the stream in a well.
Third... nah... not in a well. You don't see those sorts of things going on in a water well intended for human consumption.
This case is pure-and-simple mechanical abrasion from particulates. I'll bet there's a 4' deep 'sand pack' in that lift pipe before it turns on, which gets veritably BLASTED against the side of the pipe for a second or two every time the them pump comes on.
Lloyd
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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message

http://inspectapedia.com/water/Well_Casing_Leaks.php Did you notice this: "On the other hand, as corrosion in a well casing may be local to the usual top of the static head in the well, the repair sleeve approach may make sense." That's the outer casing where water meets air, not within the delivery pipe.
-jsw
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On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 21:29:52 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Yes, Yes. But the common "crevice corrosion" that effects stainless stuff below the water line on a boat is something different. It is a dissolving of the protective coating on the surface of the "stainless". See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crevice_corrosion
I suspect that finding a body of water that varied in concentration of the same solution within the length of a boat might be difficult. Certainly the ocean is never still :-)
--
cheers,

John B.
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On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 11:10:34 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"

This is an INTERNAL abrasion? OK, forget what I already wrote.

If it's flex, why can't you lift it yourself? Between the drop pipe, wiring, and safety rope, "it shouldn't be too hard" <g>, especially with a hole at the bottom, allowing all that water weight to go away.
G'luck.
I'm considering installing a pitless adapter so I can sink the manual pump into the well casing alongside my submersible drop pipe. I already have the new lead-free brass foot valve, PVC pump, and PVC pipes. Water level is 18 or so feet.
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whereas I am merely in disguise.
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On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 08:53:06 -0700, Dave, I can't do that wrote:

B00E945SJG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid35938092&sr=8-2&keywords=power+meter

B000FKBZ7M/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid35938149&sr=8-15&keywords=power+plug

Your fancy wattmeter will only read half of what the pump is actually using. You probably knew that already.
Make sure your fancy wattmeter can stand the current draw -- a normal outlet is 10 or 15 amps; your pump may need much more.
All you really need is an instrument that'll show accrued time. If you could get an old mechanical clock that had a "days" dial then you could use that. Or just an old mechanical clock, if you looked at it often enough.
If you don't like my mechanical clock idea, and if your wattmeter gizmo can't handle the pump current, wire a socket into one leg of the pump supply as planned (if you want to be Electrically Correct fuse it for 15 A), plug your gizmo into it, and plug a load, like a 100W light bulb, into the gizmo. Then your total energy usage will be a measure of time. It won't be perfect, and you'll need to make sure that your light bulb isn't burnt out, but you'll get a reading on pump usage.
For that matter, if there's someplace in your house close to the pump circuit where you're to be found often, just put the light there and keep an eye on it. Even if the pump house is outside, a 100W light bulb should be visible most of the time.
--
www.wescottdesign.com

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On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:13:48 AM UTC-7, Tim Wescott wrote:

It's a 240v 1.5hp motor (1134-Watt) and I doubt the meter is directly in series with the load. Might be wrong, have been before. :)

Great idea, thanks, I will see what's at the local junk shops next time in town. Must surely be able to find one of those old flap-clocks.
The pump, supply and connections are 100-feet from the house and not visible and, I would prefer not to be adding 100-Watts extra to the costs.
I am going with the flap-clock, if I can find one. Brilliant thought, thanks again.
Dave
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    O.K. Less than 5 Amps then (except perhaps during starting surges).
    But the typical Kill-A-Watt both measures the voltage (across the neutral-to-hot span) and the current delivered through the hot. The latter could be with the current fed through a shunt, or the hot wire threaded through a current transformer. But it *does* have to measure the current as well as the voltage to calculate the watts load.

    Presumably, the power comes from the breaker box in the house, so a relay could sense the current and turn on a lamp -- or a clock. And the lamp doesn't have to be a big 100W one, a small LED light could be sufficient to see. Mount it where you look when sitting down a lot. Perhaps over a TV if you watch a lot of TV.

    Best if you control it with a relay, so it can be in the house where you can see it frequently -- and perhaps reset it to 00:00 every night.
    Good Luck,         DoN.
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"Dave, I can't do that" wrote:

This is a lot better than an old clock:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Standco-Type-T-41-AC-Running-Time-Meter-2-/400822185748
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