Ford plant that the union won't allow in the US

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It seems the UAW should be renamed the ANTI-UAW.

Reply to
Tom Gardner
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On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 23:11:46 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom Gardner" quickly quoth:

Indeed. But, you know as well as I do that Ford is building them there because it's much cheaper there than here. Labor has to be less than 1/4 of what it is here, medical packages (IF they supply them there) are likely 10 cents on the dollar to here, etc.

One reason I didn't buy a Ford is because I'm afraid of their future; I don't know that they'll last out the decade. Another one is that an F-150 at Mock Ford here in GP cost over $15k ($40-45k vs $26k) more for an equivalent vehicle to the Tundra I bought. With Toyota's superb craftsmanship and satisfaction ratings and Ford's sadly waning rep, I really had no choice at all.

-- Self-development is a higher duty than self-sacrifice. -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton

Reply to
Larry Jaques

Interesting video of a modern manufacturing plant - right at the end, occupying about 5 seconds, was the line that the Unions wouldn't allow it to be built in the US. Who made the film, who paid for it - looks more like an advertisement than a serious look at engineering technology - and the Happy Smiling Workers - sorta reminded me of the Soviet Union 1930's propaganda....

You accept this at face value - what happened to critical thinking?

Correct me if I am wrong, but Honda (and possibly Toyota) have plants in the US, making a profit, making cars people want to buy - how did they do it , in the face of the Luddite "Unions"?

Andrew VK3BFA.

Ideology - easier than thinking. anon

Reply to
vk3bfa

They (and Mercedes-Benz, BMW, etc.) built most of their plants in impoverished areas, in the South, where there is no history of unions. They're always ready to move their plants if there is a big union threat, and they let it be known, subtlely. They're mostly able to avoid outright illegality regarding US labor laws.

They also get huge tax breaks from the states and municipalities into which they move, which shifts the burden for infrastructure, etc., onto the workers. But the workers in those areas are happy just to have jobs.

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

Thanks Ed - was curious how it was done..

Andrew VK3BFA.

Reply to
vk3bfa

I wonder if people in Michigan would be happy just to have jobs...oh, never mind.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

I think the people in Michigan, having seen what enterprise *can* do for a society, recognize that the current scheme is a complete ripoff, partly engineered by business interests and globalization ideology, and partly an inevitable consequence of historical development. They may not know how it happened, but they know the difference between the lives they once lived and the lives they live now.

When you think about this subject, Tom, you should keep a couple of things in perspective. One is that the old system was working for everyone involved: workers were well-paid, and the businesses were getting loaded. Another one is that this all changed when the world finally recovered from WWII and became competitive with the US. Nothing much happened in the US to put a crimp in our economy -- excepting a few sinkholes like the war in Vietnam -- but everything changed in the world around us. Another issue that looms pretty large, but which is exceedingly hard to measure, is that a lot of the wind has gone out of our sails as we've run out of common goals to work for. Frankly, we already achieved a reasonable approximation of post-WWII goals by the mid- to late '60s. We've been floundering ever since, while the developed world is just getting fired up about their own possibilities.

I think you know I've spent over 20 years studying this and writing about it, interviewing dozens of economists, government officials, corporate executives, and so on. They can make the situation sound immensely complicated an indecipherable, but it's really not. The usual excuses simply don't add up. At every point in trying to unravel this, you need to look at numbers. You have to make a balance sheet and P&L out of the whole thing to see the big picture. The economic externalities, such as the unaccounted-for costs of degrading the environment, DO NOT explain it. Our reversed trade balance DOES NOT explain it. Deficit spending DOES NOT explain it, because there was relatively little of it accumulated throughout that period, until the mid-'80s. Even now, when you take out our deficits and re-calculate where we would be without our current rates of deficit spending, it DOES NOT explain it. Higher wages DO NOT explain it.

Only one thing involves numbers large enough to largely explain it, and that is the effects of world competition. That's NOT to say it's explained by our trade balance. What it is to say is that we are in a race to the bottom, with competition shaving the margins off of wages and savings, directly and indirectly, while business simultaneously has maneuvered to avoid the line of fire, maintaining their profits in any way possible. We're winding up with an economically divided society, and that makes us much weaker as an economic force.

Even simplified, it's not something we could credibly discuss here, or in a book, or in ten books. But you get a sense of it after spending a decade or two tracking it down, digging up the numbers and seeing what's real and what's an excuse. I don't pretend to have the answers to it but I think I do have a sense of where the big numbers are, and what the forces are that are at work. It's nothing like the trivialities usually discussed here; your comments about unions and wages sound to me (with all due respect) like the thoughts of a man floundering around for answers and scapegoats. Your numbers simply don't add up, as I sometimes point out and as you always ignore.

I'm not going to try to change your thinking. You're comfortable with your understandings and I rarely try to upset applecarts these days; those days are over for me. Instead, you and your thinking becomes the object of interest. MY interest has gravitated from understanding the economy to understanding the people in it. And you and the people who agree with you are an interesting object of study, to say the least. d8-)

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

As an object of study, you're wasting your time. I reluctantly admit to being disingenuous in many of my statements about unions, politics, economics, society and such. Sometimes, my main goal is to provoke, mock or entertain. I'm inspired by some of the more ridiculous remarks from the usual suspects to make stereotypical remarks from an opposing view. There sure are some easy marks readily available! I have to confess that your perception, the product of what I have presented over the years, is the result of my whim and mood.

However, anything mechanically related comes from the heart!

Reply to
Tom Gardner

On one hand, it's a relief to know you're not as stupid as you sometimes appear to be. d8-) On the other hand, it's disappointing to learn that you're really a troll. d8-(

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

Zing, and Zing...it doesn't count coming from a abortion loving, anti-business, God hating, tax & spend, hate the rich, amoral, evolutionist, wealth redistributing, gay loving, global warming, union minion, misguided, lying, cheating, move-on.org, fringe, lemming, "hope and change" liberal!

Reply to
Tom Gardner

Of course he's a troll-- Tom even looks like a troll. ;-)

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

Not to mention smell...and in some ways taste!

Reply to
Tom Gardner

On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 13:05:28 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed Huntress" quickly quoth:

Ditto me on Tawm's remarks, Ed. Tawdry one-liners are often hard to keep to myself.

We're all Trollzos on this bus.

-- Pain makes man think. Thought makes man wise. Wisdom makes life endurable. -- John Patrick

Reply to
Larry Jaques

On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 13:48:35 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom Gardner" quickly quoth:

You owe me one new keyboard and monitor. Coffee all OVER!

-- Pain makes man think. Thought makes man wise. Wisdom makes life endurable. -- John Patrick

Reply to
Larry Jaques

That cancels out everything else :-)

Mark Rand RTFM

Reply to
Mark Rand

Larry, send me your address and I'll send _Ricochet_ off to you on Monday. I'm taking off for Virginia in a few hours or I'd send it to you tomorrow.

-- Ed Huntress snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net

(remove the "3" for valid e-mail address)

Reply to
Ed Huntress

Hey Ed, Send it to me as well if you would. I'll pick up a copy if you aren't able but I'm lazy in my old age. Yeah. LOL

Reply to
John R. Carroll

Sure. Larry, send it to John.

It's a pretty fast read. He'll be done with it soon.

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

Sorry Ed, I assumed it was electronic.

Reply to
John R. Carroll

That's OK. He can pass it on to you. It's pretty good; it will give you a lot of insight into the NRA's organization and infighting, which is considerable.

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

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