GM Failure

This is happening/has happened already Ed. The real problem is that the plans being proposed won't work, They don't go far enough to convince the American people to get behind them and that is what it is really going to take. The example - step by step - that the Big Three needs to follow has been written in history. All of these guys are familiar with that example and if they aren't they should be.

Had Rick Waggoner stood up and told Chris Dodd that if Congress would provide the financing GM had delivered it's last gas only vehicle, he would have stunned the room and then gotten a standing ovation AND the money, as much as was required, from the assembled. GM could be out taking orders for a vehicle to be named later this very day and Congress could agree to have the Treasury Dept. securitize those orders to provide the cash back to GM. It would be a self licking ice cream cone.

The examples of BK'd automakers that bit the dust won't wash either. This is a very viable possibility today because none of the examples cited represented the end of home grown auto manufacturing in the US. It also ignores the Chrysler turn around. People bought K Cars by the thousands at a time when both GM, Ford, and the media were braying publicly about orphaned vehicles built and sold by a company that wouldn't survive. Lee Iaccoca sold the press and public. The rest is now history.

See if your wife doesn't think these guys don't remind her a little of "small ball" Palin. Especially Gettlefinger. Where in hell did they find that ignorant bumpkin? I wouldn't buy a car, new OR used, from that cracker.

JC

Reply to
John R. Carroll
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Let's point out another governmental fault:

At one time there was a plan to build the Super Conducting Super Collider (SCSC) in Texas. This basic research into particle physics is the missing part in eventually changing the world over to nuclear fusion power (NOT fission...which we already have).

The funding for the SCSC was cancelled after some Senate dumbfuck asked one of the physicists on the team requesting funding for the project, "Will this help us find God?"

No shit.

The physicist didn't know how to answer and the funding got cancelled.

We now have a consortium at CERN building the Large Hadron Collider (it's done...they're working out some kinks). Apparently all the research data will be shared amongst the international consortium members.

So instead of being the sole world leader in the field of power creation through nuclear fusion, the US will be an "also ran" and all because the lawyer classes that end up in the Senate are scientifically RETARDED!!!

So much for the product lead in electric vehicle technology in Detroit also. If there had been a major push to fusion, they would have been completely on board with it and once again the Big Three would be on TOP of the market.

So is the US government made of of a completely blind collection of coke head pedophiles that pontificate that they are important people? Hell yes it is. If you've ever had any dealing with Federal officials, you can spot a stupid incompetent asshole everywhere you look. They have totally departed from reality. Dave

Reply to
dav1936531

I'm being pragmatic. I can divorce what is personally good for me from what is good for the country.

Reply to
Wes

It's too bad the CEOs of the auto co. can't or WONT. :-( ...lew...

Reply to
Lew Hartswick

People will still be buying cars they will just be the ones still being made. ?? fired workers. Just how many of them were "working"? :-) ...lew...

Reply to
Lew Hartswick

But Ed it's like the old leaky roof problem. When it's raining we can't fix it and when it's not raining it dosen't need fixing. ...lew...

Reply to
Lew Hartswick

On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:46:29 -0500, the infamous "Ed Huntress" scrawled the following:

I'm another perfect example. I saw the writing on the wall, with Ford probably not being solvent during my ownership of another of their vehicles, so I bought a Toyota Tundra instead of another Ford pickup.

I was -very- happily surprised when I saw the near $15k price differential, too. All the F-150s were going for $40k+ around here and I got the Toyota for $26k. Then they tossed in $3k of discount for buying off the lot (even though they bought the truck at another dealer in Portland and drove it down. I didn't get exactly the truck I ordered, but I think I'm happier with the gold paint than I would have been with white. It doesn't show dirt.)

Will the purchasers be doomed to inherit the UAW, or can that 'little problem' be removed during takeover, too?

-- Smell is a potent wizard that transports you across thousands of miles and all the years you have lived. -- Helen Keller

Reply to
Larry Jaques

Transfer Pricing. Common not only internationally but also interstate in the US for multistate corporations. "Profit" flows to lowest tax area. Internationally there are "divisions" established in tax haven countries such as Aruba, that take legal title but not physical possession of goods in international transit. Buy low, sell high and any "profit" winds-up in the tax haven, possibly with tax "losses" on each end.

Like Leona Helmsley said "We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes ..."

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see
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the use of international credit cards. If the execs have international company credit cards billed to a tax haven account, they get "tax free" money to spend in the US.

Unka' George [George McDuffee]

------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

-------- Most likely Ford can make it, especially with some additional credit and if GM goes. Chrysler with additional credit and if GM goes should also make it as a niche player [mini vans] and contract assembler/manufacturer for other car companies [AFAIK they are currently assembling VWs vans in the US]

With the current management GM is doomed, and even if the management is replaced their financial structure is so bad that it is a "zombie" corporation.

e.g. *NEGATIVE* 58 billion in stockholder equity

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total book equity of *NEGATIVE* 65.1 billion with a total market cap of about 2.5 billion, or a ratio of -26:1 This appears to be an example of infinite leverage as there are huge liabilities/debts with no assets, and division by zero results in infinity.

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{page 11}

Chapter 11 does not appear a viable solution for GM, but rather Chapter 7, possibly with one or two select niche brands purchased by another company. Corvette by Tata anyone?

Unka' George [George McDuffee]

------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

The important question is how many of them were bringing home a paycheck. The nice thing about someone else being overpaid is that they spend the money into the same economy the rest of us swim in. It becomes a bad thing when they make so much money that they invest it overseas to avoid taxes and high wages.

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

We can fix it even when it's raining. Whether a democratic government will ever be good at fixing roofs when it isn't raining is the real dilemma of democratic government itself.

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

With a takeover, it varies with the contracts. And the courts set the rules in a bankrupcy. If they liquidate, though, it's no problem. The buyers would be purshasing buildings and machine tools, not people.

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

------------ You may be right on this.

After watching the two congressional hearings, [see other posting on urls to watch on your computer] it now appears the smartest move will be to provide 8-10 billion from TARP funds to get GM and Chrysler through the next 2 months until the new administration takes over, ==>with the understanding that the GAO/IRS/SEC goes over their books to determine the actual situation using FASB/GAAS accounting, and if possibly a quick law enforcement/IRS check to see if there has been any gross kickbacks

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

VW vans? all 15 sold per year?

Reply to
Cydrome Leader

I think the brands are still valuable. Chevrolet, Cadillac, Ford, even Chrysler will always retain a certain percentage of the market. If the newly reorganized company is solvent and honors existing warranties, people will still buy from it. Whether the trademarks and desirable production facilities can remain intact and be transferred in a liquidation is of course, questionable. The other question is, even assuming the US automakers are not long term viable, can we afford to let them fail right now?

Reply to
ATP*

Studebaker.

My parents owned a Studebaker when the company collapsed, in 1953 if memory serves. The car became instantly worthless, for lack of repair parts. I don't recall how long it was before we were forced to replace that car at a loss, but it wasn't long. They broke a lot.

We subsequently had two Ramblers (both were junk!), then in the 1960s my Mother discovered Volvos from reading Consumer Reports. Volvos were new and cheap then.

The family has not bought an American car since.

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joseph Gwinn

I had a 1953 Studebaker 1/2 ton pickup and with the little six and overdrive trans it was quit thrifty but not overpowered. I still have it but it has a Chev 350/350 in it with a nova subframe. I think Studebaker had one of the first double wall pickup boxes. In the sixties they had Chevy engines in their trucks. It seems there are still quite a few Stude parts available but without a dealer network parts would have been a problem before the internet made things more readily available. Here is a timeline of the company.

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Reply to
Up North

No, when the over aid buy second homes in my neck of the woods and drive up my property values and taxes they hurt the locals. Then there is their attitude. Sadly they retire where I live and then get to vote in our elections. ARGH!

Wes

Reply to
Wes

is good for

Everyone that GM/Ford/Chrysler hands a check to, better get real if they want to salvage something out of this. That means White collar, Blue Collar, and Retired.

I'm wondering what the PBGC is going to pay if Detroit goes down? That is the starting point for legacy costs on retired employees.

If I understand it correctly, new hires have a totally different deal than those that have senority. Seniority needs to give some more up. Top level management needs to give up something also. Lower level likely has. I don't know what the deal is with the huge number of contract engineers. (AKA Temps)

Wes

Reply to
Wes

You got there first, eh? Look over your shoulder. There may be some Indians who would disagree.

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

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