Oh yes....we will no longer have to COMPETE with Chinese coolie labor.......we will BE Chinese coolie labor. Great idea.
Get ready for the massive influx of employment litigation as the Chinese learn about the American legal system. Dave
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 01:27:13 -0500, the infamous snipped-for-privacy@nowhere.com scrawled the following:
I think their lesson will be to buy a company which is bloated at the top and the bottom. They may replace the bloated salaries of the management but the union is there to stay without a Chapter 7 amputation of the afflicted wages.
Imagine: the workers each being paid more than the managers and CEO. (Anyone cross-eyed yet?)
-- At current market valuations (GM is worth less than Mattel) the Chinese government can afford to buy GM with petty cash. --Bertel Shmitt on kencan7 blogspot
Major problem [or opportunity from their point of view] is that when they own the brand names they can make the cars where every they wish and then import, much like the "domestic" brand name consumer electronics such as VCRs, blu-ray players and TVs [e.g. RCA, Magnavox].
After purchase, they can keep most of the dealer networks and brands, keep some but not all of the sales, marketing, design, and spare parts staff/facilities, and liquidate the rest.
Detroit is among the top car importers now, and they also import major amounts of high value added components [engines, transmissions, electronics] for domestic assembly so this is simply an extension of the existing situation, not something new, and has been in progress for at least a generation. Consumer electronics, consumer optics [cameras], textiles/clothing, shoes, tools, and many other economic sectors have already gone this route.
Detroit had a cow several years ago when adding "country of origin" and/or "percent domestic content" information on the existing new car dealer sticker was proposed, claiming it would cost too much. As in so many things, a cost reduction can be obtained here with "China" and "100%" pre-printed on every dealer sticker...
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
============== In case you missed these
------------- Krugman: US auto industry will probably disappear
By MALIN RISING, Associated Press Writer Malin Rising, Associated Press Writer ? Sun Dec 7, 7:36 am ET Nobel Prize Laureate in Economics Paul Krugman of the U.S signs a chair, at the AP ? Nobel Prize Laureate in Economics Paul Krugman of the U.S signs a chair, at the Nobel Prize museum in ?
STOCKHOLM, Sweden ? Nobel economics prize winner Paul Krugman said Sunday that the beleaguered U.S. auto industry will likely disappear.
"It will do so because of the geographical forces that me and my colleagues have discussed," the Princeton University professor and New York Times columnist told reporters in Stockholm. "It is no longer sustained by the current economy."
--------------- for complete article see
----------------- Senator calls for Chrysler merger, new CEO at GM
WASHINGTON ? A key senator says the nation's car companies should have to replace top executives in exchange for a long-term bailout package from Congress.
Sen. Chris Dodd heads the Senate Banking Committee. He says he is hopeful Congress will pass a short-term $15 billion aid package for the automakers in the next several days. But the Connecticut Democrat says the companies should have to restructure if they want a more significant bailout from Congress next year.
Dodd says the companies need quick cash to avoid collapse in the next several weeks. But over the long-term, Dodd says Chrysler probably ought to merge with another company and General Motors should be required to replace chief executive Rick Wagoner.
Dodd says Ford is the healthiest of the Big Three U.S. automakers.
------------------ for complete article see
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
Back in the 1920s the big companies all had what they called interlocking directorates. Basically, this was just an old white boys network of bigwigs that were members of many boards of directors. Everybody was on the boards of everybody else's companies. It was a real nice deal for those in on it. Today we have basically the same sort of thing. Nobody on any of these boards of directors ever says anything is too much for the management. Why would they? That is why they are on the board, to help the managers and to make money for themselves. It's just more of the same old boys network we saw in the past. It just makes you wonder if things are ever going to be fixed. By now we know exactly what the greedy capitalist pigs do when you give them the change to do it. So the question is whether the new administration is going to reign them in like FDR did or will they just go along with them like they have in the past. With the two parties acting as a duopoly that rubber stamps the decisions of the corporations it's no wonder why we are in this mess. I for one will be very disappointed if the Obama administration goes along with this corruption like everyone else has since
1980.Hawke
While the "Brave new world order" "crystalized" under the neocons, this was just the end result of a long process. Don't forget that it was "Slick Willie," with much help from Bobbie Dole, that rammed NAFTA through.
This all depends on your point of view, your expectations of corporations and your definations. We have more billionares than ever before.
Problem here is that much of the financial "profit" reported was cobwebs and moonbeams, and in many cases was generated by the canibilization of the manufacturing sector. When judged by net taxable income [in many cases zero], the results were *MUCH* less impressive. Either there was tax fraud on a massive scale, gross book cooking, or both.
Needing to do somthing [fast] and doing it are two very different things, as the country is about to discover.
Even in the countries with high rates of manufacturing growth, it has taken *AT LEAST* a generation to develop their infrastructure [e.g. roads, power plants], vendor networks, supporting/secondary firms, and an educated/trained workforce.
In many cases in the US, the buildings, equipment and machinery used for manufacturing no longer exist, having been exported or sold for scrap, the infrastructure, again roads and power, have been allowed to deteriorate, the vendors and secondary supporting firms no longer exist, and the educated/trained workforce has either found other jobs [mainly in the service sector/retail sales] or retired/died.
Perhaps the single most critical item, the orgazational memory and informal methodology that are the basis of all successful manufacturing has been destroyed, if not by bankruptcy/liquidation, then by an endless series of reorganizations, reengineerings, right sizings, downsizings, etc.
A close second it the total lack of trust and confidence by the [potential] workforce in American management. The employees, or their parents, have seen what management promises are worth, even in the form of written contracts, as their pensions, 401ks, retiree health benefits, etc. disappeared and their jobs were eliminated.
While market forces may in fact be liquidating some obsolete economic sectors and their companies, in far too many cases, the process is being accelerated. exacerbated and exploited by sociopathic individuals who already possess more money than they and their children can ever spend.
FWIW -- having driven "manufacturing" into the ground, plundering of corporations, including looting their pension plans, continues and has moved on to other areas such as the media. For one example see
----------- Tribune Considering Filing for Bankruptcy Protection, WSJ Says
By Jennifer Sondag and Sarah Rabil
Dec. 8 (Bloomberg) -- Tribune Co., the newspaper publisher and broadcaster taken private by billionaire Sam Zell last year, is considering filing for bankruptcy protection, according to the Wall Street Journal.
Tribune continued talks with lenders to restructure its debt in recent days, the Journal said. The Chicago-based company, saddled with $11.8 billion in debt from the $8.3 billion buyout of the company last December, has been cutting jobs and selling assets including Long Island?s Newsday to reduce its obligations.
------------- for complete article see
-------------
When the Tribune Company was purchased by Samuel Zell by utlizing an ESOP, one question was how long would it take before the litigation began. Today, that question was answered when a group of current and former employees filed suit in the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California. A copy of the complaint is available here.
A quick check of the filed Form 5500s reveal that these are not small plans. For example, the Tribune Company Employee Stock Ownership Plan for 2003 had over 11,000 participants and beneficiaries, and total assets of over $800 million. The Tribune Company Master Retirement Savings Trust had over $2.2 billion in assets for the 2006 plan year listed on Schedule H of Form 5500. A really interesting part of this litigation to watch will be the ultimate attorneys fees awarded when this litigation ends.
-------------- for complete article see
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:07:16 -0600, the infamous F. George McDuffee scrawled the following:
Question: How does some entity which is $3.5 BILLION in debt borrow an extra $8.3B for a merger?!?
--snippage--
That's enough to make a mortician puke, and they don't puke easily.
-- At current market valuations (GM is worth less than Mattel) the Chinese government can afford to buy GM with petty cash. --Bertel Shmitt on kencan7 blogspot
Remember those banks that were lending money to people based on distorted views of the way the world should work?? The whole Private Equity Company (buy someone with a loan and then make _them_ pay it off) thing is not far short of fraud.
Isn't the retirement trust fund inviolate? If not, you need some legislation fast!
Mark Rand RTFM
------------- Information now surfacing indicates Zell got control of the Tribune company and its pension funds/assets worth 8.2 billion for an investment of 300 million.
Debt is now 13 billion and assets down to 7.6 billion, mostly in the form of non-liquid assets.
Note that the Tribune [the company] was still profitable, just not profitable *ENOUGH*. Also note that the pension funds, "invested" in the sham ESOP were not guaranteed by the PBGC and are just gone [apparently into Zell's pockets].
We are looking at the "evaporation" of about 11 billion dollars [equity + new debt] from a company under Zell's control in less than a year.
How gross does it have to get before its criminal?
============== How Zell Killed Tribune Stephane Fitch, 12.08.08, 07:42 PM EST The ''grave dancer'' of real estate becomes the ''grave digger'' of the newspaper industry.
When Samuel Zell outbid two other billionaires, Eli Broad and Ronald Burkle, for Tribune Co. last year, he was hailed as a dealmaker.
For just thinnest possible sliver of equity--some $300 million--he landed an $8.2 billion empire featuring the Chicago Cubs, a host of television stations and two of the most important newspapers in America: The Chicago Tribune and Los Angeles Times. Article Controls
"I am delighted to be associated with Tribune Company, which I believe is a world-class publishing and broadcasting enterprise," Zell said back in April 2007, announcing the deal. "As a long-term investor, I look forward to partnering with the management and employees as we build on the great heritage of Tribune Company."
Monday was a different story. Tribune declared bankruptcy in Delaware. Against assets allegedly worth $7.6 billion, Tribune Co. owes $13 billion. The "grave dancer" of real estate development was now the "grave digger" of the newspaper world.
Bad economy or not, if it wasn't for Zell and the enormous debt load he packed on the company, Tribune Co. would be trundling along profitably. It hauled in operating cash flow--which is net before taxes, depreciation, amortization and interest--of $90 million on $1 billion in revenue in the third quarter. In the six quarters before that, Tribune Co. was hauling in $200 million to $270 million per quarter in cash flow.
-------------- for complete article click on
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
Quit top posting stuff George. I'll answer your "question", but you already know. As gross as stupidity may become, the rules and the law allowed all of this. As a matter of fact, this behavior was encouraged and abetted.
Zell didn't kill anything.
JC
How about his net worth? I don't know about these people that want to be media tycoons. Rupert Murdoch is the same way. I guess these guys haven't seen the handwriting on the wall yet when it comes to newspapers. They're dead or at least on the way out. The internet is killing newspapers. It's an obsolete form of media and it has no future. Why people are still trying to own a newspaper chain is beyond me. I think they are fools and will only bankrupt themselves. It's TV, computers, and handheld devices that are the future. Paper and ink; that's so 19th century.
Hawke
Wait 'till you hear the news today. The governor of Illinois is in FBI custody for corruption as of this morning, and part of it, apparently, involved deals made with the Tribune Company.
The wicket is getting very sticky.
-- Ed Huntress
----------- I didn't think it was possible, but its getting even stinkier. Crook county earned it's name.
========== Illinois Governor Is Arrested on Corruption Charges (Update2)
By Thom Weidlich
Dec. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich was arrested with his chief of staff on charges they tried to sell U.S. President-Elect Barack Obama?s vacated Senate seat, according to Chicago U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald.
Blagojevich, 51, a Democrat, and John Harris, 46, the chief of staff, are scheduled to appear later today in federal court in Chicago, according to a statement by Fitzgerald.
==>They and others also threatened to withhold state assistance to Tribune Co. in connection with the company?s sale of the Wrigley?s Field ballpark and to have fired members of the Chicago Tribune editorial board who were critical of the governor, according to the statement.
--------------- Indeed, and I fervently hope this is an isolated and exceptional case rather than the new standard.
Unfortunately, a presumption of rampant and extensive political corruption and collusion with the "financial interests" resulting in "short circuiting" of the regulatory and law enforcement process fits the known facts all too well.
This leads directly into the question "are the current bail-out efforts the result of an earnest desire on the part of the politicians to help the US economy recover, are they the result of bribes/kickbacks, or does the financial industry now have adequate 'black-mail' material to force rescue funding?"
Re exchange with jcarroll on this point:
While stupidity and incompetence in corporate governance may not [yet] be criminal offences, conspiracy/bribery to evade/avoid regulations and subvert/obstruct law enforcement most definitely are.
Given the huge sums involved, have the wire and other transfers been checked for compliance with the money laundering and other statutes, and if not, why not? How much of this money has been sent "off-shore?"
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
Blagojevich's predecessor is in jail right now. LOL
Sure. Seen any of that? GM is good at exactly two things. The first is advertising. The second is the legal version of what you seek to punish - lobbying.
J
As you said, fits the facts...
John is pretty sharp on these matters. If he is concerned, I suspect we all should be.
Take note all, that this is NOT a situation we have ever been through before. Like I mentioned to Ed last week, old models don't apply to new situations.
Richard
Key word is "legal."
Everyone has a right to contact their Senators and Representatives, and to present the most compelling case they can about (existing & proposed) legislation/regulation.
At the other extreme, no one has the right to show up with an actual or figurative attache case full of 100$ bills, nor does the congressman have the right to accept.
The dividing line is very dim and blurred. For example, is a standing weekly appointment to discuss current events of mutual interest over a meal at a very expensive restaurant, paid for by the contactor, acceptable?
In the case of GM, it can be plausibly argued that the constituents' interests are indeed served by such meetings, particularly where GM has a significant presence in the district/state. SecDef "Engine Charlie" Wilson [under Eisenhower when GM had 55% market share] was correct when he observed "What's good for General Motors is good for the country, and what's good for the country is good for General Motors," even though this cost him his job. Even with "only" 20% of the domestic US automotive market, GM remains a major factor/player. Even the expensive restaurant can be "justified" as providing "privacy," as compared to the House or Senate dining rooms.
Problems arise when contentious issues with broad societal impact, for example emissions regulations, fuel economy, crash-worthyness standards, work place safety, fiscal/financial controls, etc. are discussed (and effectively decided) without the opportunity for comparable input from the other interested/affected/impacted groups.
It is becoming increasingly evident that far too much "lobbying" is now on the wrong side of an admittedly dim and blurred line. More than likely this was not an abrupt change, but a gradual shift over the last 20 or so years.
FWIW -- it does not appear that GM was an especially egregious, albeit highly effective, lobbying practitioner nor did they "push the envelope," but the financial services and energy/mining industries "let 'er rip."
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
Sure it is. Legislators and lobbyists know the law right down to the finest detail for the most part. They are obligated to follow the letter of the law, not its spirit.
An informed public that would trouble itself to excercise its right to vote is the only voice required. The ignorant and lazy forfeit their right at their own peril.
Things haven't really changed at all. The only difference is in the mechanics, not the results.
Now there is where you will find criminals.
Not GM but Chrysler info.
Just ran across this article on how Chrysler was planning to develop and produce small fuel efficient cars for the US to "save the domestic auto industry." ============ Chrysler and Chery End Small-Car Project Auto Makers' Efforts to Expand Their Reach Is Dealt a Setback By NORIHIKO SHIROUZU in Beijing and ALEX P. KELLOGG in Detroit
Chrysler LLC's efforts to make its U.S.-dependent business more international suffered a serious blow this week, taking down with it Chinese partner Chery Automobile Co.'s bid to break into the North American market, after the two auto makers ended a joint project to make small cars for sale around the world. For Chrysler, the severing of the Chery ties ended one of its most promising potential routes to build a more competitive small-car lineup.
Under a July 2007 deal, Chrysler had planned to develop a series of small cars based on Chery designs and technology. The cars were to be made in China to take advantage of Chery's low labor costs and sold globally under Chrysler's Dodge brand.
The venture's first model was going to be a compact car based on Chery's 1.3-liter A1 car -- one of several cars the two companies, according to Chrysler, were supposed to develop.
Phil Murtaugh, a top Chrysler executive in China, told a group of reporters at the Beijing auto show in April that the project was taking more time than Chrysler had initially expected because of some last-minute engineering "tweaks" being made to the Chery-designed platform to ensure the joint vehicle's structural rigidity meets safety regulations in the U.S. and elsewhere. Mr. Murtaugh didn't elaborate. Reached by phone Tuesday, he declined to comment.
It wasn't immediately clear whether Chrysler is still trying to develop and produce small cars in China. After agreeing with Chery to jointly develop small cars, Chrysler went on to begin courting another start-up Chinese auto maker, Great Wall Motor Co. In July, Chrysler signed an agreement with Great Wall to explore cooperation in the areas of distribution and technology.
According to a Chrysler spokesman, the end of the Chery deal won't affect any of the more than two dozen other alliances and partnerships Chrysler is currently engaged in. "Our partnerships are not interdependent," said Chrysler spokesman David Elshoff in an email.
----------- for complete article click on
==>Note that Cerberus has refused to put any more of their own money into Chrysler.
On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:28:09 -0500, the infamous "Ed Huntress" scrawled the following:
For a certain someone _else_ from that area, perhaps? ;)
Q: Are there any upstanding politicians (from city officials on up) from the state of Illinois?
-- At current market valuations (GM is worth less than Mattel) the Chinese government can afford to buy GM with petty cash. --Bertel Shmitt on kencan7 blogspot
PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.