Got the lathe -- now what?

Okay, I got the Cincinnati Tray-Top lathe home today. Seller could not find the gib for the compound, so I may have to wind up making one, although he promised to keep looking. (Actually, my machinist friend said he'd see what he could do about making one ... it's nice to have friends!!) When I hooked up the motor, it was a little funky, so I'll probably eventually replace it, but it hopefully will get me started. So far, those are the only surprises ... so far!

But before I do too much with the lathe, I want / need to clean it up. Any suggestions? Wipe everything down with WD-40, or ?? Vacuum out all the old chips? I'm not looking for pristine, just wanting to make sure the old gunk is off.

I also would like to drain and replace the oil ... but that raises a question: what kind of oil should I use in this thing? The headstock appears to have something like 90W gear oil in it?? Does the same oil go in the headstock, quick-change gearbox, and apron? If I drain the oil, should I do anything to clean it out before refilling, and if so, what?

Part of wanting to drain the old oil is that I need to do something about the warped sight glasses. I think I can make replacements out of some plexiglass on hand. Some of you have mentioned fixing this on with RTV. Okay, I'll show my ignorance: what is RTV?

Anybody got a manual for this thing???

Many thanks!

Andy

Exactly how? That's an old wive's tale. WD40 doesn't last, but for wiping down it's OK.

Hmm, I was told not to use motor oil (because it gets gummy? or because of the additives?) -- yes? no? Does the same apply to synthetic motor oil?

Andy

According to Andrew H. Wakefield :

Better than it could be. I think that you have a winner.

The WD-40 is good enough for cleaning it, but be sure to wipe something better on the exposed metal surfaces soon after you finish the cleaning. WD-40 is no good for long-term protection. Get some Vactra No. 2 Waylube for the ways and for wiping down other exterior surfaces.

Others here, those who have this machine, should be the ones to suggest the proper lubricants there. I suspect that the apron will run a thinner oil than the headstock, but if someone has a manual and can give the proper lubricants, that is better than my guesses.

Hmm ... it will be easier to make the replacements with a working lathe -- if you can't find the proper ones on your own.

RTV = "Room Temperature Vulcanizing" -- a silicone rubber which either is mixed in cans (e.g. RTV-11 from GE), or comes from squeeze tubes (probably what they were suggesting, as the mix from cans is better used for potting circuits and such.

That's what you *really* want. Unfortunately, I don't have one, so I hope that someone else does.

Good Luck, DoN.

Cincinnati's still in business I believe, call 'em up and request a manual.

GWE

Andrew H. Wakefield wrote:

Any oil is good to prevent rust. But, as you will need way oil eventually, you might as well get some now.

No way. I seem to recall you said it ran up to 1500 RPM? No way you can put 90 W gear oil in a spindle running that fast. I'd guess something about like Velocite heavy. Does the same oil go in the

No, probably not. The headstock has large gears, with modest loads, running at high surface speeds. The other gearboxes have much smaller gears with higher PSI loads running at much lower velocites. Maybe Mobilgear 626. If I drain the oil, should I do

Maybe wipe extensive gunk off the bottom with paper towels or rags. Replace the oil sight glasses. If like my Sheldon, they can be tapped out fairly easily, and McMaster-Carr has replacements in a range of inch sizes.

No way. RTV is bathtub caulk. I cleaned the sight glass holes very carefully, and then tapped in new ones with Loctite gasket cement on them, and they still leak (just a little). Bathtub caulk will never work. There is almost certainly a GE RTV product DESIGNED for sealing oil-filled gearboxes, and probably a line of similar stuff for auto engines. So, you might check at the auto parts store. But, the Loctite gasket cement looks like the right product for this job.

Jon

If you use motor oil, make sure it is not a detergent oil. A detergent oil will hold the particles in suspension and not let them settle out on the bottom of the gearboxes. It will also pick up and carry in suspension all the stuff that is already settled out on the surfaces.

I would try to put in the recommended oil. Mobil has a book of machines and the recommended oils for them. A good lube oil dealer will have the book and the oils.

John

WD40 won't attract moisture,but... It's mainly solvent, and that dissolves any oils it contacts, then it evaporates, leaving nice clean dry metal behind. Nice clean dry metal rusts really fast.

The WD in WD40 is for water displacer. Works so-so as a cutting fluid for aluminum, decent as starting fluid for brush pile fires.

I like using light oil, drench the whole thing down with the stuff, then go over the whole machine with a couple rags. It gives you a chance to have a good look at the whole machine to see what there is to see, and it won't cause any harm if left on for a day or more between sessions. I had a gallon can of mineral oil that I used for this, and have used turbine engine oil when I had some of that. Automatic Transmission Fluid is supposed to work pretty good too, for cleaning stuff.

I'll leave the recomendations for internal oils and way lube up to someone that has one (and may even have a manual).

Cheers Trevor Jones

I'd roll it onto something that will absorb or contain droppings as you clean. WD40 is a good solvent that won't hurt anything. It's pretty good for softening varnish and such. Just do not leave it on, as it is not a lubricant, and it certainly does not slow corrosion. They make a volume spray can (Max-Blast?) in 24-oz size. By all means get rid of the chips. Some disassembly is almost certainly required. I'd look at dropping the apron and going through that. That is usually not too difficult, and it's a common problem area.

I would consider using Hylomar in this application. It looks like Prussion Blue, but it's tacky and will seal even an oily surface, metal (or plastic) to metal. It's ideal for a gasketless mating of two machined surfaces.

Thanks all for many helpful suggestions. What is involved in dropping the apron? Does it disassemble from the cross slide (if so, I haven't found the bolts)?

I had a chance to go out and play a little while. I did some cleanup, but then got impatient and decided to hook up the motor and see what happens. It runs, but ...

The motor is rather hinky. It's an old, massive Emerson, 1-1/2 hp, single phase, 110 or 220. There are no starting caps! But there does appear to be a system of brushes??? I thought brushed only came on a universal type motor. Could the brush mechanism be some sort of starting circuit? The leads coming out of the motor are labelled T1, T2, T3, and T4. Anybody have a clue if this can be reversed, and how? (Right now it's turning backwards.) Anybody know how to wire it for 220?

The gear head seems to be in decent shape, but I'll need a more complete test to feel sure. I do wonder if the oil that is in it is too heavy. It appears that the lubrication is mostly a splash lubrication -- does this sound right? There are a couple of copper tubes that seem to be designed to catch some of the oil and direct it to the bearings.

The clutch is not entirely working correctly. At first it was sticking on, but eventually loosened up. Now I can hold up the lever to engage the clutch, or let it down to release it -- but I can't figure out how it is supposed to *stay* engaged. I'll have to do some further investigation ...

All the change gears seem to work, as do the power feeds.

I took a look at the old electrical system -- as I expected, the old contactors were long gone. No biggie ...

Thanks again for the help. Please keep on offering suggestions as they occur to you!

Andy

Repulsion start motor. Good indication of age (meaning it's really old). They don't make them any more but in there day they where one of the stronger starting motors. Based on the leads I'd say it's single voltage. My bets are that the leads are currently tied T1-T3-Line and T2-T4-Line or the reverse which is T1-T4-Line and T2-T3-Line. However double check that before playing.

Splash is common on lathes though some like my Pratt and Whitney have a oil pump.

Should be a snap over center clutch. In other words it should take some extra push to make it stay engaged and to engage the brake as well. Might need adjusting. To tight makes it hard to impossible to snap over. To loose and it will slip or won't stay engaged.

Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX

I'm sure you will get make-specific answers from more knowledgeable folks, but the typical procedure is:

Remove right side leadscrew mount (2 bolts?) Detach leadscrew from QC box (Roll pin or taper pin or?) Withdraw leadscew through apron and set aside. If there is a separate carriage drive shaft below the leadscrew, remove that also. Remove 2 - 4 bolts from top of carriage. They thread into the leadscrew vertically. Separate apron from carriage. This is a machined fit, with dowels. They are usually pretty snug.

The nameplate specifically says 220 and 110, with appropriate amps for each, so it must be dual voltage. At the moment I think it is wired T1-T2-Line and T3-T4-Line, but I'll have to check.

Hmm ... any thoughts about how to adjust it? I'll try to put some pictures in the drop-box later today; maybe that will give someone some ideas.

Thanks, and keep the suggestions coming!

Andy

Okay, I can see how to pull the feedscrew. I'm going to have to look again for any bolts from the top of the carriage; I didn't see them before. Could they be under the crossfeed?

Hello, Andrew.

I'd work on getting a manual right away. That way you are less likely to make an unrecoverable mistake somewhere along the line.

To help with understanding the motor, replace the words "funky" and "hinky" with phrases that describe what the motor is doing that appears to be abnormal to you. Maybe it hums before starting to turn Maybe it has some sort of smell Maybe it makes a rumbling or rattling noise, etc.. I agree with contacting the mfr for a manual. Ebay often has manuals for machine tools, too.

There are newsgroups and list servers for many specific machine tools out there. I would subscribe to an appropriate one right away.

Last comment: NEVER mention WD-40 on this forum. People wake up from the GRAVE on both sides of the issue to try to change the other guy! Of course I am the only one who really knows and I'm not telling. .

Pete Stanaitis

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Andrew H. Wakefield wrote:

Ok. Well that blows my reversing theory out of the water. I'm guessing that if you check the resistance that you'll find something like T1-T2 and T3-T4 being two separate coils (could be different numbers especially if your memory is correct on current wiring). Anyway the way they're wired is parallel. Changing to series will convert to 220. At that point it'll be something like T1-Line , T2-T3, and T4 to line. Again numbers may be different but it gives you the idea.

As for reversing well that my well be a function of the repulsion brushes not making good contact somewhere. BTW there will be some form of centrifugal switch on the brushes to turn them off once up to speed. It may lift the brushes away or it may be some form of switch next to the brushes but something will turn them off once started.

Varies with brand. Best bet is let me see a pic of the clutch near the actuating yoke and then I can give better advice.

Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX

More updates, questions, and some pictures -- see comments in line below:

I had never heard of a repulsion motor, but once you told me what it was I did some browsing through old posts and found enough to figure out what was going on. There is a collar that holds the brushes which is held by two screws. These screws were loose, allowing the brushes to rotate about 90 degrees. At times the motor was very slow starting up (that was part of the "hinky" business--I apologize for using these technical terms! :) and I'm guessing the brushes were not positioned quite right. I tried moving the brushes all the way around the other way and tightened the screws -- and presto! rapid start and now running the in right direction. I need to put a better wire and plug on it, and a better switch (that was the other "hinky" part), but I think I'm in business with the motor. I won't be able to reverse it in any easy way, but I can live with that for now.

Okay, here are some more pictures showing the inside of the headstock--gearing, lubrication, and clutch:

The first picture shows the whole thing. The second and third pictures are closeups of the clutch. The brass lever moves a collar to the left, engaging the clutch. Well, it sort of engages--but it won't stay engaged unless I keep pressure on the clutch. surely something is supposed to click in place, or ??? Any help or insight greatly appreciated!!

The last picture gives a closeup of some of the lubrication system. There is no oil pump that I can see, but there is this interesting arrangement of copper tubing. It appears that the large gear in the center of the last picture throws oil onto the clutch, which then throws it into the right-hand copper tube. From there oil can flow down the left-hand copper tube, presumably to the bearing for the clutch/pulley shaft (the tube disappears into the end wall of the headstock), and it can flow down a plate onto the right-hand spindle bearing. I'm not sure how the left-hand spindle bearing gets lubed.

I drained the headstock today--it does indeed seem to have been filled with

90W, or something close to it. Until I get a manual, I can't swear that's not what is supposed to be in it, but I'm going to be surprised if it is. I'd like to put something in to help get the rest of the gunk out--any suggestions? Someone mentioned ATF--any particular kind? Someone else suggested kerosene?

I also found the bolts that hold the apron to the carriage--underneath, not on top. I probably won't tackle dropping the apron for a while yet...

At this point, my biggest concern is the clutch, since if it doesn't work, it looks like a pain to get to.

Thanks for the input; keep it coming!

Andy