Hot steel

problem around here is that there is nowhere to get instruction except the craft school . And they tend to cater to the "I've got more money
than sense" crowd . I mean 350 bucks for a 2 day course in knife making and materials are extra just isn't in my budget . Lucky for me I have a blacksmith neighbor who is willing to point and laugh , then tell me where I went wrong ... and the thing is , you can often just heat it back up and correct the mistake . Right now I'm making tools to make other tools to make "stuff" , maybe some knives , but more likely things like hooks for a pan rack , drawer pulls and cabinet handles , other small household type items . And very likely things for the shop . The whole reason I started down this road was because the neighbor
steel for a screwless vise for the milling machine . Who am I kiddin' , I've wanted to do this for some time now and that was a great excuse . Now if only all this sheetrock would mud and tape itself , I'd have more time to burn my fingers fumbling my way to blacksmithing hackdom .
--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
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On Saturday, February 23, 2019 at 8:36:33 AM UTC-5, Terry Coombs wrote: he


I doubt if any of my advice will be worth anything to you, but I will give it just the same.
One. is that you can buy books on Advanced Book Exchange or Amazon. Not nearly as good as seeing some one do it and explaining why they do each ste p. But better than stumbling around by your self.
Two you can teach. How to Tig weld. How to build a forge. How to sheet rock. Or actually help someone on an actual project. Best of course would be te aching some one how to sheet rock at your house on your wall.
Dan
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On Sat, 23 Feb 2019 06:28:05 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@krl.org"



And live with the ugly results of an ameteur or have to do it all over again???
With forging the one thing to remember is when the sparks fly it's time to start over. Can't salvage burned steel - - -
Same when welding. Once you've burned it it's done.
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My take from the blacksmithing class was that instead of a forge and larger anvil to hammer the too-thick parts thinner, I needed acetylene to build up the too-thin parts thicker, and smooth out the lumpy mess from trying to build up with stick or MIG.
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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

My take from the blacksmithing class was that instead of a forge and larger anvil to hammer the too-thick parts thinner, I needed acetylene to build up the too-thin parts thicker, and smooth out the lumpy mess from trying to build up with stick or MIG.
*****************************
What wire do you use to MIG on additional material? My experience is that the most common ER70S6 is harder than the mild steel I might be trying to practice backyard metal beating on.
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Probably. The mashed wood splitting maul edge I built back up with whatever surplus wire was in the machine has held up well and stayed sharp.
IIRC my uncle had used the maul to trim an inconvenient lump off a granite porch step for my grandmother. The consequences of damaging the tool were less than those of displeasing her.
I practiced with 7018 until I could fold the test coupon double along the weld line with a 50 ton press. If you are concerned about weld brittleness, that's the test.
If a weld doesn't machine well I anneal the part in the wood stove overnight.
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On Sat, 23 Feb 2019 07:37:18 -0600

<snip>
NPR ran an interesting article on this last week:
==SCIENCE There's A Gap Between Perception And Reality When It Comes To Learning February 18, 2019 Heard on Morning Edition by Shankar Vedantam
Increasingly, people feel they can master tasks simply by watching instructional videos like the kind you find on YouTube. But sometimes the gap between perception and reality can be deep and wide... == https://www.npr.org/2019/02/18/695637906/theres-a-gap-between-perception-and-reality-when-it-comes-to-learning
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
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wrote:

Videos don't create muscle memory. I needed trial-and-error practice to learn to strike the hot steel squarely, so it remained rectangular as it thinned and lengthened instead of becoming a twisted wedge or rhombus. This isn't exactly the same as learning to drive a nail straight because the hammer face to handle angle is different.
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On 2/23/2019 6:40 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

of how metal works . My blacksmith neighbor saw me at the anvil this afternoon and stopped by . In just chatting I learned that I'm working the steel a little too cold and twist is not a problem when drawing out and rounding up a piece . I admit I have been conservative with the heat , but that's easily corrected . Too many warnings about "burning the steel" and ruining it I guess . I went over to his place for a few minutes , wanted to see the profile of a type of tongs . He reduced the clutter in his shop by sending me home with a hammer with a busted handle and a pair of tongs (the type I went over to look at) that had been "modified" by welding on some pieces . And 3 long pieces of mild steel rod that had been in a fire - these were the bolts on a wire reel that a guy burned , looked like pretzels . The tongs have been restored to original and the steel is a lot straighter now ... I'm trying to decide whether to leave the hammer as a 2.5 lb baby sledge or turn it into a cross/straight peen hammer . Plenty of time to decide that .
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wrote:

...

Heat alone doesn't damage steel, otherwise it couldn't be melted. It burns if the fire has excess oxygen. You can easily explore the difference between reducing and oxidizing flames with an acetylene cutting torch.
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On 2/24/2019 6:18 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

type high speed) propane burner isn't quite as easy to judge . Especially when the inside of the forge is yellow/white hot . I'm probably erring on the side of reducing flame rather than oxidizing judging from the lack of scale formation while in the forge .
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Snag
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wrote:

http://www.blacksmither.com/episode-58-carbon-monoxide-shop/
I think I experienced CO poisoning when the propane cylinder ran low and the forge wasn't burning right. The symptoms went away while I was driving home. The next time I brought in my digital readout CO meter and left it on the instructor's desk since there was no safe place for it near the forge. I felt no symptoms and it read 0 all evening.
Maybe the answer is to adjust the burner to produce CO, then back off until it drops to or near zero, and see if yellow-hot iron scales.
I haven't figured out how to use an automotive oxygen sensor in home projects without quickly destroying it. https://www.fixdapp.com/blog/oxygen-sensor
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wrote:


When melting steel only the top surface of the cruicible is exposed to oxygen (if that) and any oxidized steel is either reduced or ends up in the slag. When forging the whole piece is exposed to air - even ( to some extent) with a reducing flame in the forge, particularly when the overheated steel is removed from the forge. The scale on hot rolled steel is a result of the "burning" of the outer "skin"
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wrote:

"Burning" steel is different from scaling at yellow forging heat, which doesn't throw sparks. https://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?/topic/16110-burning-steel/ "You can easily burn a piece of steel in a gas forge, as long a the temp gets high enough. It looks just like steel burning in a coal forge, like a sparkler."
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wrote:

Yes, there is a gap. Inside, you'll find "the learning curve", "creating skills", and "building muscle memory". Millennials are having a helluva time with it because they start with zero life experience, zero mechanical experience, and little body control from leading a sedate childhood build upon video games. (See, Ventadam/Sharp/O'Brien? I can do extreme generalizations, too. ;)
The gap is wide when people aren't particularly curious and haven't built up any cache of knowledge about physics or other "how things work" libraries in their brains. I see a video and think "I like how that's done, but I can think of another way to do it." Then I watch 3 more vids and build something using the best methods I saw + already knew. Or I build two, one optimized for one way of doing things and another using another method, since I've faced both before.
But I've been a Maker since I was 4 years old. ;) I have learned both basics and many important tips (like sequencing) from hundreds of YT vids over the years. It allowed me to immediately take on many jobs I hadn't done before and construct things the clients and I were both proud of. There's still a gap, but it was lessened by the videos. Well, until I get to the violin. <skreeeeak>
It's sad that Sharp thinks the videos are detrimental to his learning. As a teacher, he should both know better and adjust for it. Is he coming from the "throw money at it" direction, apparently thinking that the price includes skillsets? (He already spent probably ten grand on Festering tools, the $$SnapOn of wooddorking toolmakers. Good tools, way overpriced.) If anything, his teaching skills are declining.
--
"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined
and that we can do nothing to change it look before they cross
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On 2/28/2019 5:24 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

potato gamer who only knows how to use his thumbs to control his avatar ...
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Snag
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wrote:

Training videos can be interesting even if you aren't likely to practice the skill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=0OmOQs0ziSU

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On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 9:37:40 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Wait...What? You don't think you're likely to ever find yourself with a 16" gun to shoot? Seriously, you'd do well to watch this video over and over because, well, you never know...
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Actually the part that interests me most is the rapid handling of heavy and dangerous objects with a mix of automation and trained skill. The machinery designer has to know how much he can demand from the operator, and serving large guns pushes the limits of strength, coordination and endurance.
The closest I've come have been running a log splitter and trying to learn to move a backhoe bucket straight back, parallel to the ground. Splitting firewood is a dangerous operation that combines the heavy lifting of a powder handler and the finesse of a rammer operator. Twisted or knotted wood can suddenly fly apart with considerable force
If I wanted to lose my hearing, sleep on the cold ground like the homeless and and drag 1000 lbs through mud I could become a reenactor. http://www.artilleryreserve.org/manuals.html The second one, by Henry Hunt et al, covers the 20MB that a Civil War artillerist had to learn and practice correctly while 10,000 screaming enemy charged toward them with fixed bayonets. As the Union artillery commander at Gettysburg, Hunt tricked the Confederates into launching Pickett's Charge by withdrawing intact guns randomly as though they had been destroyed.
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On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 21:38:42 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"

Yessirree! Ever watch FPSRussia on YT? What a blast that's been. (double entendre intentional)
--
"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined
and that we can do nothing to change it look before they cross
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