how did the system for sizing up nails in hardware stores come about?

The "penny" sizing related to the original cost per hundred, presumably when nails were handmade. As to gauge & length, could be well buried in the annals of time.. The general rule of thumb, is to use a length 3x the thickness to be fastened.

Tom

Putting on my production cost estimator's hat, I'd be suprised if it dates to the "hand made" days. It's would seem more likely to have been adopted they started cranking out nails on machines.

It just doesn't make sense to me that some nail maker would settle for the same pay for hand making TEN two-penny nails, one at a time, for the same money as he'd get for making just ONE 20-penny one, does it? The smaller nails must have been a lot harder to hold onto with tongs than the big ones, and easier to lose on the floor if they flipped out too.

Unless, of course, the cost of material relative to the wage rates was hugely different than it has been in my lifetime.

I'll hope to learn more....

Just my .02 (penny nail.)

Jeff

It is derived from the British Troy weight system. A Troy pound is about 373.24 grams vs 453.59 for the avoirdupois pound (the American version). A pennyweight of a Troy pound is therefore 3.7324 grams. Prior to February 15, 1971, a pennyweight was 1/240 of a pound sterling. About 1.555 grams.

A US one cent coin (the US does not mint a penny) weighs 1/20 oz av. or 5.67 grams. A 10 d (penny) nail weighs 15.55 grams or a little less than three one cent coins.

As Jeff would say, this calculated after consulting Lunar tide and solar flare charts. In English, fudge factor.

Huh. Pennies ( ;D ) weigh exactly 2.5 grams, so accurate in fact that I cast and tuned a whole set of lead weights up to a kilogram, calibrated on my balance with just pennies and nickels (5 grams). I later weighed one on a proper scale and it came out within a gram (1%).

Tim

-- "I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!" - Homer Simpson Website @

Thanks for that, I never would have thought of penny weights. Now I can dig into my box of real money and work out what on earth my American woodwork books are talking about.

Mark Rand RTFM

Yes they do weigh 2.5 grams, providing they are newer than 1982 when copper got too expensive to make pennies from. Post 1982 pennies pennies (most of what's in circulation now) are 97.5% zinc and 2.5% copper, the

1962 to 1983 pennies were 95% copper and 5% zinc and thus weighed almost 25% more.

Not to forget the 1943 "steel" pennies which weighed somewhere in between the copper and zinc ones.

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Put me down amongst those who favor the elimination of the penny coin from our currency, as they've already done in other countries (Australia?). From what I've read, it costs our government almost one cent to make and transport a penny to where it will be distributed into the general population. (And since that cost is reported by our government, who knows how much it really might be?)

We mint as many pennies as all the other coins combined because so many pennies get lost or tucked away in jars in dark closets. That likely results from newlywed couples following the tradition of putting a penny in a jar each time they make love during their first year of marriage and taking one out of that jar in succeeding years. It is reported that no couple following that plan ever emptied their jar.

Seems to me that the overall time spent by people fumbling around handling pennies to make change in gadzillions of everyday purchases must waste a LOT of hours each year which could be better spent doing more productive or enjoyable stuff.

Again from my reading, bills to eliminate the penny come up in congress every few years but are beaten down by the mint workers, (Half their production, remember?) with a little help from charitible agencies who believe they'd get less from countertop collection jars if people didn't toss pennies in just to get rid of them. The folks who are selling the metal from which pennies are made probably have an oar stuck into that issue too.

Other than low denomination postage stamps I can't recall seeing anything for sale in "quantity one" priced atless than five cents recently. Rounding prices (and sales tax too) up and down to the nearest nickle makes a lot of sense to me.

Just my .02,

Jeff

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Well if you really believe that should happen then shouldn't you change your .02 cent tagline, and up it to a nickle.

Just my .05

"Two Shay"

Arrgh! I'll fall on my sword!

Jeff

Dang, I hate that! I'm in the clear, heading for the goal line when I stumble and fall. I confused my pennys and pennies.

You are correct. The current one cent is indeed 2.5 grams. (The first one cent coin weighed 264 grains.)

It is the pennyweight that is 1/20 of a Troy ounce. A Troy ounce, by the way, is 480 grains....of barley.

Many years ago, our currency is now notes - $100, $50, $20, $10, $5 all are different colours and are made of a special plastic with special anti-forgery features. coins - "goldies" $2 & $1 the $2 being smaller, don't know what they are made of, definitely not gold, just that colour. "silver" I think they are actually cupro-nickel 50c, 20c, 10c & 5c

Many things are still priced differently to 5c multiples eg 99c and a purchase total ending with 3 or 8 is rounded down to the 10 or 5 below, 4 or 9 are rounded up when paying with cash, credit card charges are to the exact figure. Most retail prices are GST inclusive, with the GST amount shown after the total payable as basic foods are tax free.

Plus wear & tear on pockets etc. Alan in beautiful Golden Bay, Western Oz, South 32.25.42, East 115.45.44 GMT+8 VK6 YAB ICQ 6581610 to reply, change oz to au in address

If memory serves, (it has been a while) the cost of an individual nail in pence was the weight of a thousand in pounds. I.e. if a thousand nails weighed ten pounds, then those were ten penny nails. Of course, this was back when 10 pence was a lot of money, about a day's wage for a carpenter's helper, according to one source.

Now, how wire sizes were determined (the 18 ga brads, etc,) that is still a mystery to me.

More likely that the machines started cranking out "standard size" nails. Then selling them at a hefty markup, but still cheaper than the hand made variety.

You started with square rod. Heat the tip, hammer a point, cut nail to length, and upset a head on the end. Repeat. All day long, from "can" till "can't."

The interesting comparison I heard was that prior to the Industrial Revolution (which was more about the cheap manufacture of Iron than anything else) wages were colorable (that is, a days pay for a master carpenter would buy pretty much what a days wage today would), but the cost of iron was colorable to silver, and steel was comparable to gold. Ergo, it was more cost effective to make mortise & tendon joints, even in construction, than to nail the beams in place. Would you want to sink an hours pay into holding one end of beam in place?

That makes more sense to me than the presently used system here in the USA. We have Both $1 paper notes and $1 coins in "current circulation", but the $1 coins are almost never used by anyone, I think it's because they are quite large and so much heavier than the paper ones that five or six of them put a considerable tug on your pocket. We have 50c coins too, but they are also about as big and heavy as the $1 coins and seen even less often than the $1 coins.

So there's a "rounding advantage" slightly in the purchaser's favor?

credit card

Jeff

smaller, don't know what they

Those half dollar coins are a hold over from when a US Dollar was worth something, and half a dollar was a good deal of money. Why do you think they were called "Cart Wheels"? It is rather symbolic that the "new" dollar coins are about the size of the quarter dollar coin, which tells you about what they are worth. :-)

tschus pyotr