It was perfect Until It Wasn't - Pins

Remember when I mentioned things just working lately? I needed a D drill today. I did a quick and dirty 3 facet free hand grind one one of those I "Destroyed" yesterday, and punched a test hole with it. It was on position (close enough), a .246 pin dropped through and a .247 pin didn't.

Just engraved 5 molds, put hinge pins in one, and I'm I just finished the 3rd batch of blanks on the fixture plate on those two vises. I'm debating some frog molds on it now.

I was thinking it must be getting late. I got a lot done... than I saw its not even 2 o'clock yet.

What do you think happened.

1. Did I screw up by a nice parallel 0.007 inches?

1. Did the Chinese grinder operator just stop when the vise was square without checking all the dimensions?

No guesses?

In either case I could fix it by turning some shouldered pins 0.014 larger diameter, or if I was insanely talented make a sleeve .007 thick.

The former would require a slide hammer pin puller and heat. The later would require skills and equipment far beyond me.

Or... I could just machine .007 off the other pins with even taking them out of the vise... next time I have them off the table.

What do you think happened.

1. Did I screw up by a nice parallel 0.007 inches?

1. Did the Chinese grinder operator just stop when the vise was square without checking all the dimensions?

No guesses?

In either case I could fix it by turning some shouldered pins 0.014 larger diameter, or if I was insanely talented make a sleeve .007 thick.

The former would require a slide hammer pin puller and heat. The later would require skills and equipment far beyond me.

------------------------------- Add shim stock behind the recessed vise jaw? Tin can steel is close to

Telescoping brass tubing easy to hold and turn in a collet. A live tailstock center keeps it straight and when parting it cut close to the collet so it doesn't bend. I use a parting tool to reduce its diameter with a smooth finish.

I definitely thought about gluing (loctite) on some shim stock, but I think milling the pins is the easiest answer. I do have precision shim stock on hand. Since the t-slots have a generous chamfer I would not even need to risk touching the bottom of the vise, but because there is so much surface area it wouldn't matter if I did.

If I marked them left and right I could mill the pins individually to have a likely pull and drop on within a couple tenths of parallel across the whole 14 inches of effective grip range. (Gap > 2.0 between vises.)

Even being 7 thousandths off but parallel, positioning was a lot faster than normal for setting two vises up as a pair. Well once I got over my temper tantrum and stopped kicking things.

If I had thought of it, threaded shoulder pins would have been removable and more easily fine tuned. Thread for fastening, small shoulder for accuracy, and large shoulder for positioning. Drill, Counter bore, ream, tap. Next time. LOL.

Just kick the right thing in the right place hard enough to shift it .007" the right direction - - - - - -

I did. Right after my temper tantrum.

On second thought. NO! ABSOLUTELY FREAKING NOT! JUST BUMP IT IN IS NOT THE RIGHT ANSWER!

Yes, absolutely I can bump in a vise. Yes, absolutely I can bump in two vises together. I DO NOT FREAKING WANT TO AND ANY FORM OF ME WANTING TO IS NOT THE CORRECT ANSWER.

The whole point was to make taking the vises off and putting them back on a big nothing. Sure I can bump in a vise. A single vise I can do very very fast. Under a minute if it doesn't move when being tightened down. Really 2-3 minutes most times. Two vises isn't much more difficult, but it is a little. Add on top of that I want to make it fast and REPEATABLE to maximize use of the work envelope of the machine and just bump it in misses the mark entirely. I want them not just aligned, but in the same spot.

... and the solution to the task I ACTUALLY WANT TO MAKE EASIER is even easier than I was thinking last time around. I could do it with a file and a mic next time the vises are off the machine.

I have no issue with with spending some time once or twice to save from a couple to several minutes for the rest of the life of the vises every single time they go back on the table, and get a consistent repeatable result doing it. In addition to just making the job of putting the vises back faster, easier, and more consistent it will mean I will take them off to do other jobs more often as well if that's the best way to do the job. I personally will be more flexible in my approaches to jobs. I do not see this as a once in a great while thing. I see me taking advantage of the improved efficiency often and willingly.

I'd still indicate them just to make sure they don't move when being tightened down, but it will make them faster and the machine more usable for one off jobs where the vises aren't the best work holding, or where a different vise is the best work holding.

Its not because its hard, its because its efficient. Same reason some people install a power draw bar. Its not HARD to put a wrench on the quill and a wrench on the draw bar and then tap on it with a hammer... well on one my machines it would require a step stool, but its still not hard. Its just a lot more efficient and you will change to the best tool more often if it is. Net productivity goes up. I have 6 mills under power in the shop. Only one does not have a power draw bar (or other quick change tooling system), and it has had the same tool in the spindle for years. I only use it for engraving.

P.S. I'm not yelling at you. I'm yelling at me for allowing myself to be dragged away from my purpose in this exercise.

"Its the way we have always done it," is not the BEST way to keep doing it if its a routine process and you can make it better.

I have no issue with with spending some time once or twice to save from a couple to several minutes for the rest of the life of the vises every single time they go back on the table, and get a consistent repeatable result doing it. In addition to just making the job of putting the vises back faster, easier, and more consistent it will mean I will take them off to do other jobs more often as well if that's the best way to do the job. I personally will be more flexible in my approaches to jobs. I do not see this as a once in a great while thing. I see me taking advantage of the improved efficiency often and willingly.

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The method I used on the RF-31 vise could apply here. Clamp a straightedge on the table with the rear edge indicated parallel to X travel, clamp both vises on it upside down. Mill the key slots to make them identical, fit keys to the vise bases and table slots. The vise and table slot widths don't have to be the same, the key can be stepped. The vises will fit identically, as accurately as you care to make the slots and keys.

If you know the table slots are parallel to X travel the keys can be straight and milled in a vise. To make its upper vise base tenon and the fixed jaw parallel to X I had to mill the key in the RF-31 table slot which was angled.

I think I have a handle on dialing them in for THAT machine. It also occurred to me to do something I found fault with on another machine.

The Y position needs to be very consistent and that is (will be) achieved with the key pins, but it is helpful if the X position is modestly consistent as well. Maybe not sub half thousandth like the Y position, but within 10-15 thousandths. This would of course also help with the Y position as inconsistencies in the T-slot would be mooted. The answer? Engrave the table. Wait, I know. Apprentice marks on the table are to be avoided, but in this case it would be a great help. The idea has been creeping up on me.

Engraving the table is as abhorrent to me as it is to some of you, but we are talking about a bed mill here. The work envelope never changes. Even in a major tear down and rebuild it wouldn't change much.

I've seen it done before. On a mill that made no sense (to me at the time) to do it. There are work envelope marks on the table of my KMB1. I got it that way. It didn't make any sense to me at the time. The head can move left to right, and telescope in and out. The work envelope can absolutely change on it. In fact its one of the reasons I decided to rebuild it instead of scrapping it. With some care I can make work pieces three to four times the area of the "static work envelope" without moving the part. The previous owners probably never moved the head. I had to use a hammer to break loose the telescoping part of the head, and it took a lot of leverage to swivel it left to right. The thing is if they were working on modestly large work pieces it might have made sense for their work flow and efficiency to be able to quickly see it was within the work envelope.

The Tormach is a bed mill. As stated above the work envelope never changes,so being able to drop the vises in nearly the exact same spot every time would be very beneficial, and much augmented by engraving the table. I'm actually particular about their position and relative distance. With them almost exactly int he center, a little over 2 inches apart I can work on molds in a single setup 18 inches long with little or now chatter coming from the work piece for the types of work cuts I make.

I'm not managing the machine to have best resale value. I'm managing the machine to get the best work out of it for what I do.

The Y position needs to be very consistent and that is (will be) achieved with the key pins, but it is helpful if the X position is modestly consistent as well. Maybe not sub half thousandth like the Y position, but within 10-15 thousandths. This would of course also help with the Y position as inconsistencies in the T-slot would be mooted. The answer? Engrave the table. Wait, I know. Apprentice marks on the table are to be avoided, but in this case it would be a great help. The idea has been creeping up on me.

--------------------------------- That's one way, another is to make a spacing fixture from threaded rod through a block or plate that registers against the end of the machined table or tee slots.

My Denford Triac CNC mill has a inch/mm scale fixed to a bevelled surface at the front on the table T slot area that runs the whole width of the T slots. You can see it in some images here

It was tounge in cheek response to your kicking things around in frustration!

On Mon, 1 Jun 2026 17:13:38 -0700, Bob La Londe snipped-for-privacy@none.com wrote: ...

It was tounge in cheek response to your kicking things around in frustration!

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Now I'm trying to design a calibrated hammer.

You start with calibrated rubber bands.

You start with calibrated rubber bands.

Oh, I have more. Its also adjustable. Just count the number of time you turn the propeller.

Oh, I have more. Its also adjustable. Just count the number of time you turn the propeller.