leaky ceiling

The ceiling leaks in my apartment. It happened several years ago and was
nominally fixed after the ceiling was opened up and a pipe replaced and now
it has come back. It doesn't leak all the time, it just drips an average of
once a week for about an hour. The leak is in the kitchen and the bedroom,
but fortunately not over the stove and sink or over the bed. I'm planning
to write a book entitled, "Twelve delicious recipes you can make while
holding an umbrella." The water smells, maybe like mold or rust, according
to some people I've asked for their opinions.
That being the case, I've had to move a bookcase that was sitting on a
dresser in the BR, and another bookshelf that was holding cans, pots, etc.,
that was in the kitchen. This inconvenience is catalyzing a number of
improvements, especially more efficient use of space in the rest of the
apartment. The BR has a wooden floor, while the dresser in the BR is about
45.5" wide, about 24.5" deep and about 42" high. It occurred to me that this
might be a possible place to set up a small lathe, and maybe other tools. The
main thing that worries me about doing so is that I don't know what effect the
leaky ceiling will have on the machines. Hopefully the leak will be fixed,
but it is probably a recurrent problem and whenever it returns, either years
from now, or sooner if it turns out they didn't really find the cause of the
leak, it will drip on the machines.
So, it isn't an ideal location but maybe it is still a viable one. I can think
about how to set up a cover for the work area, but I'd also like to be able
to anticipate a worst case scenaria in which the ceiling leaks directly
on the work area, including the machines. Is that such a bad thing?
Ignorantly,
Allan Adler
snipped-for-privacy@zurich.ai.mit.edu
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* Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT Artificial *
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Reply to
Allan Adler
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Tell the landlord about it ???
Thought about moving recently maybe ???
Or you gonna just stay there and enable the cheapskate bastard to continue to fuck his tenants over ???
Reply to
PrecisionMachinisT
sounds like you have someone living above you that only takes a bath once a week
Reply to
Wwj2110
maybe you can ask the landlord when he/she is going to fix the leak. that might help with the problem...
Reply to
jim
Allan Adler wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@nestle.csail.mit.edu:
This can be a dangerous situation, should mold set up. There are several toxic varieties. The landlord should fix this asap, and he/she should also have the place inspected for toxic mold, lest he/she have the whole building condemed.
Reply to
Anthony
Thanks for all the suggestions on how to distance the leak: (1) have the building condemned; (2) move; (3) sue the bastard; (4) ask the landlord to fix the leak; (5) worry about molds.
The landlord is very conscientious, but leaks are sometimes difficult to track down. Merely finding an old or leaky pipe doesn't mean that that is what is causing the leaky ceiling. They already replaced one pipe thinking they had found it.
Anyway, that wasn't the point of my question. I'll let the landlord worry about fixing the leak. My question is what the impact would be on machinery below the leak, in the event that the leak comes back.
The dresser (45.5" wide x 24.5" deep x 42" high) is immobilized by being attached to the wall. To protect the dresser top and walls from the machinery, I'm considering whether I might install some kind of plexiglass container that grips the dresser top. If the container also has a roof, that would also protect the machinery against the leaky ceiling. I'm just asking about a worst case scenario in which all my ideas fail and the leak gets to the machinery sometime and I'm not there to move and wipe the machines as soon as it starts.
Ignorantly, Allan Adler snipped-for-privacy@zurich.ai.mit.edu
**************************************************************************** * * * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT Artificial * * Intelligence Lab. My actions and comments do not reflect * * in any way on MIT. Moreover, I am nowhere near the Boston * * metropolitan area. * * * ****************************************************************************
Reply to
Allan Adler
Oddly enough I have the same problem. Our shop at work is right under a clean room with a raised floor, and they have many instruments in that room that use a great deal of water. So we've been rained on a number of times. Also there is an annual shutdown where all the HVAC stuff is turned off, and it tends to rain inside the entire building if the weather is uncooperative. So I'm really up on this machinery protecting stuff.
If you suspect you will be away from the machines during a time where then the leak may happen, coat all exposed metal surfaces with LPS-3. That's all you need to do.
The 'rain' in our lab soaks through cracks in the concrete slab between floors, so it winds up pretty nasty and will tend to corrode metal rapidly. The LPS-3 does a great job of keeping any rust of corrosion away.
Now another thing you can do (and I'm working on this one for myself as well) is you can install a large drip pan under the leak. Drain it into a pump, and direct the output of the pump into a thin tube.
The tube is inserted into a hole drilled in you ceiling, so it sticks out in your upstairs neighbor's apartment, like a sprinkler head. Alternatively simply direct the pan drain to go, via gravity, into the space above the apartment supers ceiling.
My best story about leaks at work was when I found the machines getting rained on yet again, and I charged upstairs to find the culprits.
The lab owner was out in the hallway, and when I said maybe they had some problem, he said "no, no way. Nothing's wrong in there at all."
At that moment the tide of water rolled gently out from under the wall between the hall and his lab, under our shoes. It was a priceless moment.
Jim
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Reply to
jim rozen
Why don't you buy the tools first and then ask us?
John Martin
Reply to
JMartin957
Thanks, Jim. I'll look into it. Are there any ventilation recommendations connected with the use of LPS-3?
Ignorantly, Allan Adler snipped-for-privacy@zurich.ai.mit.edu
**************************************************************************** * * * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT Artificial * * Intelligence Lab. My actions and comments do not reflect * * in any way on MIT. Moreover, I am nowhere near the Boston * * metropolitan area. * * * ****************************************************************************
Reply to
Allan Adler
It does have some odor. I've never found it terribly objectionable, but the local folks at work do complain when I slather it all over my machinery right before the annual shutdowns. You could purchase a small aerosol can of it as a test, and see if leaving a window open is enough. I bought a gallon container of liquid that I'm still working off of.
Jim
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Reply to
jim rozen
The source of the ceiling leak has allegedly been found. There was a large kitchen waste water pipe with a hole in it about an inch in diameter. The pipe was horizontal and the hole was on top. That explains why it only leaked sporadically: unless there was a lot of water flowing, the water level didn't get up to the top where the hole was.
This has started me wondering, since I was reading about pumps and related matters a few weeks ago, whether this might be due to "water hammer". There might have been one spot where the hammer hit preferentially and after enough hammering, metal fatigue might have given rise to the hole. Another possibility that occurred to me is that there might have been cavitation in the flow. The pump books mention that cavitation causes erosion of propellors, so maybe something similar might have caused erosion of the top of the pipe. I didn't get a chance to examine the hole.
One reason I'm wondering is that if there is a reason why a hole will tend to form at that exact spot, the new pipe will be damaged eventually in the same way and the leak will return.
The pump books emphasize the difficulty of analyzing and modeling what will happen in a given pump and I guess it is no easier to model what will happen in an entire plumbing system and anticipate its weaknesses. Probably all one can do is wait for the leaks and then try to fix them. In this case, it took months because the leaks never happened while the plumber shop was open until a few days ago.
Ignorantly, Allan Adler snipped-for-privacy@zurich.ai.mit.edu
**************************************************************************** * * * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT Artificial * * Intelligence Lab. My actions and comments do not reflect * * in any way on MIT. Moreover, I am nowhere near the Boston * * metropolitan area. * * * ****************************************************************************
Reply to
Allan Adler
If that was cast iron drain pipe, they can and do rust through after 20 or 30 years, often for no particularly obvious reason - perhaps a flaw in the pipe or from something corrosive dripped on the pipe during construction that finally ate all the way through.
I know of several commercial buildings that have had problems like this - in particular a 30+ year old community college cafeteria where they had to replace the cast iron drain lines totally because of several rust-throughs in the pipes and fittings. Didn't help that the basement was used for storage...
ABS plastic DWV pipe is forever by comparison, but it's also noisy. Perhaps insulation wrap...
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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman
It's a kitchen sink drain, gravity pressure only, and a short fall to the leak point. So water hammer is a non-issue, as is cavitation. Sink drains usually do rust out first on the top side of the horizontal pipe. That's mainly because of the internal environment, air *and* water, which promotes rust. The lower part of the pipe is usually wet all the time, and the water somewhat blocks oxygen from attacking the iron. But the top of the pipe is often exposed to air, so oxygen gets free rein to do its thing.
I've got the exact same problem with one of my sinks right now. I've got the parts to fix it, all I need is the ambition to crawl under there and do it. There isn't a lot of room to swing a pipe wrench. *Temporarily* (heh, heh) I stopped it from leaking with a bit of plumber's putty and a wrap of duct tape.
Gary
Reply to
Gary Coffman
A lot of the older cast iron pipes ('standard weight') actually simply wear out from the material passing through them.
Others, especially the older ones, are not centrifugually cast, and tend to leak along the parting line.
Jim
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Reply to
jim rozen
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for answering my question.
Allan Adler snipped-for-privacy@zurich.ai.mit.edu
**************************************************************************** * * * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT Artificial * * Intelligence Lab. My actions and comments do not reflect * * in any way on MIT. Moreover, I am nowhere near the Boston * * metropolitan area. * * * ****************************************************************************
Reply to
Allan Adler
We use a lot of acid today in kitchens and industry. In colleges, it is common to see clear glass pipe because the acid from Chem and Physics and Bio classes etch away pipe.
Martin
Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn
Just out of curiosity, who sells the clear glass pipe that they use? Are there glass analogues of all the usual metal pipes and connectors? Does a plumber's usual training cover work with this kind of pipe? If not, who learns how to do it and how? Also, does the glass pipe really go all the way from the 3rd floor down to the chemical waste processing down in the basement?
Ignorantly, Allan Adler snipped-for-privacy@zurich.ai.mit.edu
**************************************************************************** * * * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT Artificial * * Intelligence Lab. My actions and comments do not reflect * * in any way on MIT. Moreover, I am nowhere near the Boston * * metropolitan area. * * * ****************************************************************************
Reply to
Allan Adler
Allan -
If you are still at MIT - ai lab I take it (brother at ll ) - check with the facilities management or plumbing shop.
My guess it is pyrex or the like and is connected on both ends (been >30 years) with rubber adapters on both ends - as it doesn't stretch or shrink much... It might be had at scientific or chemical supply houses - those that sell 'stuff' to bio-labs and chem-labs out that way.
Might be a common thing in large hotels as well.
Martin
Allan Adler wrote:
Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn

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