OT: Alarm system motion detector

I'm still getting broken into almost every weekend again and the thieves only get the employee's food in the refrigerators and make a mess. I have
the tools locked-up. We have an ADT system with door contacts and 4 motion detectors. ADT wants $400 for a motion detector so my idea is to install some or all of the 10 I bought for $14 ea. on a separate system that triggers a relay to turn on a fan in front of ADT's motion detector. However, a fan won't trigger the motion detector. I can't "cut-in" to ADT's system actively so I need to do it passively...any ideas?
(I won't sit down here with a gun, I won't make a batch of Exlax brownies! I do have an armed guard service that is in here every couple of hours.)
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Tom,,
I am in the security business. If ADT is quoting $400 for a single hard wired motion detector, that's crazy. (unless the wiring run is very long/unsual.)
Standard cost for an additional device, installed should be $125~150 tops. That's NY prices.
First, find out what the term of your original contract is. If the contract has ended or is in renewal, open up your yellow pages and call a few local security dealers. Ask them to take over your system. They might even throw in the motion detector for free if you bargain.
You need a real security dealer. Forget about the Rube Goldberg contraptions.
ADT is owned by TYCO (ala Kowalski). You're paying for his Roman parties.
Tony

motion
ADT's
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wrote:

Tony..you got a spare unlocked DSC PC 1500, or PC3000 control kicking around anywhere I could trade Stuff for? The 3000 in my house took a dump.
Ive got the LCD displays in the proper places, but the control is toast after 15 yrs of operation.
Gunner, once technical services manager for an alarm/data/telecom company

"Considering the events of recent years, the world has a long way to go to regain its credibility and reputation with the US." unknown
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Gunner,
I don't have any DSC stuff, I handle Ademco, and Napco (under protest!) DSC never made much inroads on the east coast.
Tony

thieves
have
install
brownies!
hours.)
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wrote:

Thanks Tony. Ive got a Napco...hummmm 2000 NOS out in the shed, but never hooked one up, and have all the existing lcd keypads for DSC..shrug. Thanks anyways.
Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years, the world has a long way to go to regain its credibility and reputation with the US." unknown
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They may have cleaned up their act since he left. The Simplex-Grinnell division seems to be back in somewhat working order after a period of prolonged chaos and incompetence.
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You just explained why I can sneak past the detectors when the shop temp is very high...and it gets VERY hot in here with everything closed-up, even with 10 hp of vent fans going. I had to go in today and show some stuff to a potential customer and I wish I had a video of me "sweeping" the plant with my 9mm Springfield...scared the crap out of the cat. No, I didn't have to smell Hoppies #9 when I got home.
I'll try an IR source and a fan ainside nd put up some motion detector lights up outside with some type of noise maker that lets the thieves know they have been "seen" before they break in.
wrote:

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Tom Gardner wrote:

< snip >
Instead of noise, how about a recording. "Here they come..., you aim for the head, I'll aim for the balls."
--
Gary A. Gorgen | "From ideas to PRODUCTS"
snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net | Tunxis Design Inc.
  Click to see the full signature.
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I talked to one of my engineer's son, a cop, about video and he said: "Great Idea! Just show the video to the inner-city Cleveland cops of some black men breaking in to your ghetto plant's refrigerators for food and the cops will run right out and arrest a bunch of them in a city-wide dragnet."

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Tom Gardner wrote:

Leave the door unlocked on the weekend. Make up a tape loop of a bunch of 'good old boys' sitting around and talking guns.
Set up a relay or use the motion detector that turns off the lights when the door is opened and at the same time activates a bunch of lasers pointed at said door.
Rent a big dog for a while.
Regards. Ken.
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LOVE IT!

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Tom, I believe most motion detectors are infared - and you may simply be able to aim an infraed heat lamp at a motion detector on ATD's system and operate it via a relay (latching in type) so when *your* motion detectors pick up movement, the heat lamp comes on tripping the ATD system. HTH Ken.
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<Ken Sterling (Ken Sterling)> wrote in message

when
Pretty sure that's correct....
As I understand it, these sensors pick up "average ir emmision".....this is sampled upon some established periodic ( time period )....if /when there is some change in total amount ir being recieved that is above (or below ) the 'setpoint' ( perhaps established as an average of the last ten samples or so)...(and it occurs within too fast of a time frame) then the alarm is triggered.
--
SVL





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PrecisionMachinisT wrote:

Close, the detectors use two sensors and compare the outputs with each other. In front of the sensors a fresnel lens which creates a comb shaped sensitivity pattern in front of the detector. A heat source moving across the field of view creates a set of IR fringes which move across the two detectors and generate an alarm. A lightbulb with a fan in front and in the field of view of the detector should do the job.
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need
I
bunch
be
and
detectors
is
is
the
or
other. In

sensitivity
view
generate an

detector
Only takes a single sensor, though some designs will use two.
You are looking for abrupt changes in the total amount of recieved IR energy is all......
Now, if you are wanting to track alt-azimuth with servomotors as in for the aiming of weapons systems, etc. then I would suggest using three sensors.
--
SVL





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wrote:

Welllllll...some do..most do not.
There are hybrid detectors that use two discrete technolgies..PIR (passive infrared) and Microwave are the most common examples.
You may get a trip from the far far more sensitive Microwave detector side, and not a PIR trip..so the unit does not trip.
These are good for things like warehouses with birds, as an example
Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years, the world has a long way to go to regain its credibility and reputation with the US." unknown
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On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:27:14 -0700, "PrecisionMachinisT"

Sigh...most PIR detectors have a parabolic mirror element with multiple segments in multiple aiming paths. An infrared detector located at the focal point monitors the sum of the incoming infrared. (or a segmented lens with the detector element facing forwards)
This makes the detector to have detection "fingers"....multple narrow "alleys" that the detector looks down. A moving heat source when passing through one of these "alleys", will spike the incoming infrared..and the detector will trip.
Hold your hand over your desk, with your fingers spread. Your fingers are the sensitive zones. Now holding a lit match...pass the burning match under your fingers. Notice the pain occurs only when the match passes under the sensitive zone ? <G>
PIR detectors have multiple zones stacked in multiple angles below horizontal so they may be mounted above normal furniture etc.
Hold your hand out again, fingers spread. Now hold your other hand below it..fingers spread, and pointing downwards at a 45' angle. We have just added another layer of detection zones. Call in the wife, have her add her hands, both with spread fingers and pointing even farther down. Notice the area is still covered by alleys..but they start making a rather complex fence. But remember..few PIRS look straight down..so most have a dead zone below them..and hugging the wall may defeat detection, directly below the unit.
Something to also consider as you ice your fingers from the match test..if you had moved the burning match towards and away from your hand BETWEEN the fingers...you have dead zones where nothing is detected until you get close to your hand. So when orienting a PIR device..it should be setup so an intruder has to cross the fingers, rather than moving towards or away the unit.
There are many units with lens arraignments specifically designed to look in only one or several directions and angles. If you have pets for example..a unit mounted in a hallway..with NO downward looking zones prevents the mogs from tripping the unit.
Some are designed to look in a 360' circle and are to be mounted in the ceiling in the center of the room, and so forth.
There are some issues with PIR, besides the dead spots between the detection alleys. The #1 is the Mouse/Elephant Effect. The unit as we know..is sensitive to sudden changes in detected IR sources. This means it will detect a mouse at xx inches, or an elephant at .xx miles. <G> Aiming a PIR unit at an area that has BIG moving heat sources in the distance..outside for example will cause accidental trips .
The other issue with PIR is and this is less common with newer units with better detection circuitry..is environmental masking. If the unit is looking at a wall that is 98.6F..it means each finger is receiving a heat signature the same as a human body. No detection unit can operated without false trips if it is only sensitive to a single "temperature", so internal temperature compensation circuits will change the sensitivity of the unit as the rooms temperature..or the background temp changes and over a time period..constantly.
Remember...our detection fingers are looking at walls and floors. As they change temperature constantly through out the day and night. Lets say its in a steel building..and the ambient is 80F. One wall is 120F because the sun is shining on it. Suddenly a cloud passes..and that wall is no longer being heated. If there were no time/temp compensation circuity..the walls sudden cooling would generate an alarm as the detector would suddenly see a change in its input. And another alarm would occur the moment the cloud passed and the sun heated the wall again.
The 3rd issue is the lack of sensitivity as the ambient temperature climbs..overloading the detector. Now it takes an elephant at xx inches to trigger the unit. Oddly enough..something cold can now trigger the unit..as its Below ambient..and the detector sees a negative spike
PIRs are NOT universal units you can stick up anyplace and expect them to A. Work Every time, and B. Not trip by accident.
Some thought in placement must be used when installing them. Unfortunately..Ive seen far too many lazy installers stick em up whily nilly and then leave. The major alarm companies tend to be the worst offenders for this. Frankly..they want the bucks far more than they care about providing you with a decent detection system.
And remember folks..a burglar alarm system has NO protection value. It will NOT protect you from intruders. It will only detect them. Period. End Program. Full Stop. Next time an alarm co. sales droid comes calling..ask for a written guarentee that their system will protect your goods. Chuckle...watch em panic.
Only the Deterent of getting detected and caught keeps the bad guys away. And if they know that the cops are 45 minutes away..they can be in and out long before anyone shows up. Gun and pawn shops are examples of high security, often with multiple alarms by multiple companies. (eggs in one basket is frowned on in such) and yet a band of bad guys who steal a truck, ram the front of the business and make off with a ton of Stuff can get away, unless other provisions are made..ram proof store fronts, lots of steel and concrete..etc.
Gunner "Considering the events of recent years, the world has a long way to go to regain its credibility and reputation with the US." unknown
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Keeping the bad guys out is the best choice and the only choice as far as residential security is concerned. I once had a prospective client who came home with his family and found his home broken into and many items missing. A sales person from Honeywell had quoted him a very low price by using sensors under carpets and a few PIR detectors (my quote was much higher) but I still got the contract. I asked him if he actually thought it was a good idea to have someone creeping around his house with the wife and children present and then setting off a noisey alarm vs. setting off the alarm before they had a chance to enter. If you want security you have to guard all the openings.
On the other hand I always asked commercial customers if they wanted an audible or inaudible alarm (better chance of catching the jerks).
Dennis in nca
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A couple of things you can do...Can you move the motion detectors where they will be activated? This likely will not be a problem for ADT as they rarely keep track of actual location of sensors. That should only be 2 wires. You could even add a sensor to run in series to the existing one, so if either kicked off that would activate it. Kind of like 2 contacts running through one input line. Do it right and ADT won't even know. You didn't say what kind of $14 sensors you had or what system they would work with. You could set up the additional off line sensors to trigger an internal bell that might just scare off any intruders. Also, you could rig the sensors to trigger the fan with a flag or strips of cloth to trigger the ADT sensors. I use an independant monitoring company that allows me to make my own changes. Just don't make any overt efforts to hurt anyone, or you'll end up with a nasty law suit. -Mike
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Motion detectors are 4 wire (2 power, 2 no/nc)
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