OT Dodge Cummins fuel system

Hey Bart,
What's the difference between Turbo-charged, and super-charged? Is it just semantics, or degree, or method of powering? I'm not a real car
buff, but I've wondered.
Take care.
Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. XXXXXXXXXXXXXX On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 00:56:31 -0700, "Bart D. Hull"

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wrote:

Well, there can be a difference. Technically turbocharging is a sub-set of supercharging, but some people use 'supercharging' to refer to the other way to do it.
Technically, 'supercharging' refers to any method for cramming more air into the cylinders by increasing the effective atmospheric pressure by means of a compressor.
There are two ways to do this. Originally it was done with a compressor driven off the engine by a belt or shaft. Worked, but it robbed power from the engine and was a little complicated to boot.
Later, with better materials, they developed systems that used a turbine in the exhaust gas stream to drive the compressor. This is turbocharging and while it's material science hell, it's mechanically much simpler and (usually) less trouble-prone.
The new usage seems to be to call any mechanical supercharger a 'supercharger' and distinguish that from a turbocharger.
Almost everything you see today is turbocharged.
--RC

That which does not kill us makes us stronger. --Friedrich Nietzsche Never get your philosophy from some guy who ended up in the looney bin. -- Wiz Zumwalt
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Bart sez: "I'm in the process of building a 200HP Subaru 2.2L with a T-3 turbo

So, Bart. What are we to read into the above statement? Are you A&P certified to "build" (build is extreme oxymnoron) a airplane motor? Pull 200mph ("continuously", sp) - what does that mean? Downrating could have a lot to do with weight differences, airframe shapes, etc. and bunch of stuff you have conveniently left out. Put a wheel on the prop shaft, let it down and see if it will "pull 200mph" going around in circles.
Bob Swinney
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Bob, You don't need to be an A & P to build a airplane or a airplane motor. 200HP is downrated for a Soob, 230HP is stock now on a 2.0L motor and their "endurance" racers and rally cars put 450 to the ground. (With serious boost and stock bottom ends!)
Airplane motors pull power continously, unlike a car engine. With a car you slap the pedal to the floor and 10 seconds later return to just above an idle to maintain the speed you just built. In a airplane so much power is used to provide for the lift and so much additional power is used to go faster. In the sky you can keep the pedaled floored (or the lever at full) for the entire flight if you wanted to and that could be for hours at a time.
Biggest changes for aircraft use are much larger cooling systems and larger oil capacities and cooling. A prop speed reduction unit divides the rpm in 1/2 and increases the torque. (Most props don't like going over 3000rpm)
This will be much more limited than our car projects as far as pushing the engine for power. We haven't yet spit a motor (tranny's do cry uncle though, we don't build those ourselves.) in any of our projects so we aren't really at the "edge" with what we are doing anyways.
Take a look at my web pages below and you'll see the serious attention to detail and design of the Soob engine project. I'm one of the "doers" vs the "talkers" as you can see in the links I have provided in the previous email and the ones just below.
Bart
Bart D. Hull snipped-for-privacy@inficad.com Tempe, Arizona
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html for my Subaru Engine Conversion Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html for Tango II I'm building.
Remove -nospam to reply via email.
Robert Swinney wrote:

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On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 00:56:31 -0700, "Bart D. Hull"

(Disclaimer - I am not an A&P Mechanic or a Pilot, but I know when to leave it to the experts, and this is sure as hell one of those times.)
You'd damn well /better/ be downrating that Subie motor, because an aircraft motor has to be stone cold reliable over any other attribute - if it pukes a piston, especially on a single, you can't just pull over to the curb and call for a tow truck. If you don't keep moving forward at all times, you start doing an imitation of a rock...
This is why people keep buying 80-year-old aircraft engine designs from Lycoming and Continental. Sure they're big, and loud, and very fuel inefficient, and they're obscenely expensive because of having a foundry-to-scrapheap pedigree for every internal component - but they've been redesigned and refined over the years to be as reliable as a hammer. And a one-piece forged Estwing hammer at that, no wooden handle to break.
Building hot motors and self-engineered mods on street driven cars is fun, but using the same slap-dash philosophy for building an aircraft is likely to get somebody (maybe you) killed. You have to use parts and designs that have been properly engineered, assemble them in a deliberate manner, and get other people to check over and verify every inch of your work to make sure nothing is missed. And you can't just way overbuild things to be safe, because there is a weight issue.
Sorry for the rant, but I'm sensing a WAY too low caution level here. And you have to go into this kind of stuff with your eyes wide open, or someone will be placing two gold pieces on your closed eyelids to pay off Charon for the River Styx boat ride... ;-)
--<< Bruce >>--
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
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Well said, Bruce! As an aside, I would add:
Dabbling in automobile engine modification is an outlet for the overzealous and undereducated. Sort of like taking up smoking, it is a venue in which the young and restless can try to prove they are as good as everyone else. It would be interesting to see a report on how many of these "wrench wranglers" ever evolve into anything else (of merit) in the engineering world.
Bob Swinney
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Bob,
Lots of Detroit's legendary car designers had a background in "wrench wrangling". If you work on a modern car it is evident that the college rocket scientists that are designing them should be made to turn wrenches on them.
Bart
P.S. I'm a college grad with an advanced degree and still like working on engines, cars, airplanes etc. It is one of the few places when your done with your work that you can get some tangible results.
Robert Swinney wrote:

--
Bart D. Hull
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Very nice engine pix on your web site, Bart! Thanks. One question though. Is this an experimental aircraft and licensible as such? You made the comment the FAA is pretty picky about airframe/engine combinations.
Bob Swinney
PS: I take it back about the wrench wranglers, at least as far as you're concerned.
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Yep, its licensed as an experimental and I get the repairmans certificate so I can do my own maintainance and annuals. I can also update parts as I see fit. (My stainless AN hoses and fittings would NOT be acceptable on a certified aircraft as they were not original equipment is a perfect example.) We know that things have improved in the 50 years since WWII, why use the same old stuff?
Funny thing, if you import a Russian MIG or a AN-2 they get licensed as an experimental. 600mph or 14,500lbs of foriegn certificated airplane and it's "experimental". But hey, its the FAA! You just need a private pilot certificate for the AN-2 beast (the 14,500lb one) but you do need a letter of authorization from a "examiner" (the first guy with nuts enough to fly a MIG in the USA and lived though it)
Don't get me wrong I'd love to fly the AN-2 (I'm thinking one real ugly flying Winnebago) or any MIG. (Like a old Mini or MG and the motor and electrics are just as cranky) I got to fly once in a L-39 (Czech military trainer) and loved every minute of it. Oh, yea that's an "experimental" as well.
If we could only remove the paperwork and lawyers from this hobby. It definitely doesn't make it any safer.
Bart
--
Bart D. Hull
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On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:50:50 -0700, "Bart D. Hull"

Actually the AN-2 is quite a safe airplane to fly. For one thing it's built like a tank. For another it was designed to take all kinds of abuse, like hard landings. Also the Kuznetsov radial is extremely reliable. Just be sure to take a pair of ear protectors. The Russians didn't believe in wasting weight on sound proofing and those puppies are LOUD!

Regulation of private aircraft is certianly out of hand and the concepts behind the way it is being done are out of date. Modifying the system is ridiculously difficult (look at how long it took/has taken to get the 'sport flying' category approved -- and I'm not sure they're certifying or issuing licenses yet.)
--RC

That which does not kill us makes us stronger. --Friedrich Nietzsche Never get your philosophy from some guy who ended up in the looney bin. -- Wiz Zumwalt
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Bruce, I disagree with the statement about the old Lycs and Conts. I have seen so many failures with these engines that would NEVER be allowed with a modern auto engine. Heads cracking at the valve guides all the way to the exhaust ports, lead fouling plugs, single failure fuel systems, carbs based on old tractor designs, cranks that have failures within the first 200 hours use (even if the engines are babied)
Honda is now working with Lycoming to bring a new engine to market for the airplanes as well as Bombardier (a 330 HP V6), and a few others on the European continent. Experience with auto (and motorcycle) engines have given these companies the experience to make a stronger, more powerful, more resilient, engine for future airplanes.
The next problem is how to get the FAA to allow these engines to be fitted to the present small aircraft fleet. You can put a LS1 in a '56 Chevy and drive it on the street but you can't put anything but the original engine in a airplane without a approval from the FAA and they are VERY few and far between.
I'm not too low on the caution level. I've done the homework and have gotten far enough to see the end of the project in sight. Just getting a bit excited, but still cautious.
Bart
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Bart D. Hull
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Chuckle!
I guess the year would be helpful! It's a '94. Don't know what I was thinking when I left that out.
Harold
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On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 00:26:39 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"

I don't own a Cummings-powered rig and know very little about them; however, a son has a 2001 Dodge with a Cummings engine. He claims this rig has a low pressure fuel pump with a reputation of causing trouble. His suffered from loss of power and he suspected it to be the problem. After a few go-arounds with dealerships he finally found one that replaced the pump. It must have been the problem because I don't hear anything about it, now.
Your symptoms are altogether different, but this pump thing is something to keep in mind.
Have you tried logging on to any Dodge discussion groups on the Web? I believe that is where my son got his information.
Keep us informed, Harold. You've tweaked out interest.
Best regards,
Orrin
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snip-------->

No, I haven't, nor did I think of it, or know about it, but it certainly makes sense. Thanks for the tip, which I will explore. At this point I have no link, so I'd appreciate one if you have it.
Two very kind individuals contacted me on the side and provided some good information, including information on the supply pump of which you spoke. I'm up to my eyeballs working on the house and don't drive the truck much, even though it's our primary transportation. It often sits in the garage for a week and doesn't get driven. When my schedule is somewhat lighter, I fully intend to explore the problem until I get it resolved. I don't much like having it not start like it is capable of doing.

Will do. What I discover could very well be common to all of them, so others might benefit as well.
Thanks, Orrin.
Harold
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On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:02:11 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"

It does sound like the lift pump is a possibility. One thing to keep in mind is that if the lift pump is weak then it could mess up the injection pump at least on the 98 1/2 and later models for sure. I believe you stated yours is a 94 which means it has the mechanical lift pump and injection pump. These are not known the go out like the newer electric pumps but do go out from time to time with symptoms similar to yours.
However I'm more concerned about the slight leak at the filter you mentioned. I don't know when was the last time you changed that filter but I ran into one which had rusted through the side do to water in the bottom. This wasn't so bad but when I cleaned it up I learned that it had rusted through inside as well and wasn't filtering!
Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook
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snip---

Blush! Changed the filter?
This truck, under the hood, looks almost new. It has barely over 90,000 miles on it. I'm almost embarrassed to say I've never changed the filter, but it has been garaged since we've owned it and has run like a top. The likelihood of water condensing in the tank is small, especially when you consider that we run a dehumidifier in the garage. As I see it, only at a station would we pick up any water, and so far we've never found the slightest indication that we have.
The only problem we've had with the truck was a leaking boot on the front right wheel cylinder (piston froze up due to rust), which I rebuilt, turning the rotors and replacing the pads, plus about a year ago it started having trouble with the starter. Turns out one of the contacts was burned almost completely away. I made a new one from some copper stock I had on hand an installed it. End of problem.
Back to the filter, it has been bled, and nothing but clean fuel comes out, so water isn't an issue. The likelihood of any internal rust is non-existent as far as I can see, especially considering how well the truck has run until this small problem reared its head. If water had been getting past the filter, I couldn't help but think that it would have missed some, and it hasn't. Still, I appreciate your comments. Who knows what the real problem may be!
Mind you, the amount of oil I mentioned on the filter was nothing more than a thin film, hardly even dusty, and represents a few years of service. It's just that the engine is cleaner than that in general, so I couldn't help but wonder if I didn't have a slight air leak, which might have accounted for the fuel problem.
Tonight, on the side, I received this email from Mike. (Thanks, Mike!)
"94 to early 98 inline Bosch pumps have an overflow valve on the back side of the pump on the return line. The spring is prone to breaking and letting the fuel drain back to the tank."
I can't help but wonder if it might be the problem. It describes, exactly, what the symptoms appear to be.
When I finally get to the bottom of the problem, I'll post what I learned. Could be useful for others.
Thanks for the comments.
Harold
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On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:29:02 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"

I'd recommend changing the filter then.

There's not telling but I would definitely change the filter. There was very few signs of anything wrong till this one just started leaking out the side.

All possibilities.

That's possible. I'm not as familiar with those year models as I am with the earlier and later models.

Definitely.

You're welcome.
Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook
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On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:02:11 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"

Snip
I'm not sure if this is the resource my son used, but it is a start:
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/info.htm
And another:
http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.dodge.trucks /
Good luck,
Orrin
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The hard start problem is a common known issue. Caused by deterioration of the rubber fuel hoses between the metal lines coming and going to the tank and the engine. Air gets into the system while sitting especially in an uphill position. They are a pain to change. They need replacement probably every 5 yrs or so. Use high quality marine grade diesel hose. Go look at www.turbodieselregister.com for details. Email if you need further.
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look here http://www.turbodieselregister.com / or here on how to fix yer truck, http://dieselram.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi If the contest is still open, my guess is the transfer pump is failing. joe
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