OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

So does this mean Harold should SMD? After he does Bob Nardelli, of course.

"Recouping some of his investment"..... DATS what I meant to say!!!! Ackshooly, I got a lot more to say, but this bit of erudition proly covers most of it--altho I doubt if the Suck-Ass Hero of RCM and his cadre of knee-jerk moralists have a fukn clue as to what yer talkin about.

I don't get this. In harold's case, there's a good chance that the amount of the theft will come out of the cashier's wages as well.

Eventually.

You can say that giving the customer a 20 instead of a 10 in change is not the same thing as the customer swiping stuff.

But at this point we're arguing over the price, not what the guy's doing, to paraphrase an old joke.

Jim

Amoral people don't see it that way, Jim.

Harold

On 15 Nov 2005 05:51:14 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, jim rozen quickly quoth:

Not in most states since that's illegal. I believe that banks may be one exception. But if she's fired for one oversight, it wasn't in her best interest to have been working for those idiots anyway.

Kudos, Harold, for attempting to help the company correct a problem. If more people spoke out when they saw blatant abuse of a system, we wouldn't be paying the higher prices we do for products + abuse. As to your tormentors, now we know who the Rakshasa are.

----- = The wealth of reality, cannot be seen from your locality. =

Comprehensive Website Development

My sincere gratitude for understanding that my intentions were in the best interest of everyone involved, *including* the guy that pulled the caper. Those of us that frequent such establishments reap our reward by making our purchases at reasonable prices when activities the lead to losses for such places are minimized. Besides, it's the right thing to do. You're OK, Larry. :-)

Harold

Yep! I hear what you're saying, and I'm convinced you'd feel the same way if you happened to be the store owner and your customers turned a blind eye as a less than honest person pulled the same scam on you. After all, they, too, may be sticking to their own affairs. Self centered people do that, I understand.

One thing folks like you seem to forget is that if you fail to act responsibly in society, society has no responsibility to respond to you in your time of need. It's like this: Don't expect anything from society that you are not willing to provide.

You, sir, sound to me like a typical taker-----one that uses people to your advantage and discards them when you have no further need of them. You flat don't give a damn as long as your needs are met. Strangely, you remind me of my brother. I don't like him very much, either, not that you'd care either way.

Harold

You're reading far too much into that post, Harold.

I'm going to put this as simply as I can; I fully agree that theft is wrong, but I don't snicker at the guy buying condoms, stare uncomfortably at the young girl buying tampons, or count the number of pipe fittings of the fellow in front of me. I also don't fantasize about the sexual relations between clerks and customers.

It's called respecting people's space, Harold and since I don't like people sticking their nose into my business, I try to avoid hypocricy by not sticking my nose into theirs. I fully admit that with this outlook I would not have noticed the possible theft of merchandise that you witnessed at the Home Depot, because I believe in giving other people their space.

If that makes me such a bad person in your eyes, then you must be a far better man than I to be able to judge me so.

Jon

Reading your post, I think I understand what you're getting at.

Respecting others' privacy and not sticking your nose into their business is not the same as ignoring an offense in progress. You just might not notice it because you're not looking for it.

It's not necessary to go about as some self-appointed Eye-of-the-Law and Guardian of the Public Good and I don't think Harold or any of the rest of us in this thread is advocating that.

Just for myself, it's an issue of what I should do if I casually become aware of some dishonesty. Notifying a merchant of an occurrence, to me, is simply being a good customer and a cautious consumer. One might just be informing him of a security hole he's missed. Shoplifting and pilferage raise prices and I hate rising prices! :)

IIRC, the cashier in the original incident was a trainee. It is to the manager's benefit for cashiers to become aware of common scams and learn to be alert to them.

I'm certainly not some paragon of virtue. Let's get that straight at the start. I have the same temptations as anyone else and at one time or another I've broken or badly bent most of the Big Ten Crash Landings, in, as the Roman Catholic tradition says, thought, word, or deed.

I've also endured the consequences of being labeled a snitch when I did no such thing, wasn't involved at all in the incident in question, and in fact didn't even know of it.

I dislike busybodies as much as the next guy, but I also have some sense of civic duty to help my fellow citizens and to help the society be as honest as a society of human beings can be, in whatever small way I can.

One needn't go around looking for incidents of dishonesty to become aware of one happening. That's the decision point that, to me, speaks directly to character. People will make different decisions on how to handle such incidents. I would hope most would elect to do whatever they can to foil bad behavior or to at least make the appropriate person(s) aware of it.

One needn't personally accost a shoplifter or pilferer, but one needn't help them with silence either.

Ah, well, another windmill resists my lance. Onward, Sancho!:)

The fact that Harold went out of his way to identify the cashier tips his hand. The fact that he did so (likely) in part cuz she didn't meet his assthetic stds tips his hand further.

If you are ignerint of the HD "Master Plan", and love and worry about HD that much, then fine, defend HD, and participate in their security effort. I really wouldn't argue w/ that--I'd roll my eyes, but that's about it.

But don't be a rat.

He coulda called HD, pointed out the incident and its nature, w/o ratting out the cashier.

But then Harold wouldna gotten his rocks off that way.

---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll

At least he didn't use the 'denial' thing. Count yer blessings....

I often do. Usually the following thoughts occur:

1) how come they're taking so long. 2) why do I have to always be behind the genius who can pick 20 things off the shelf and *one* of them will be missing the UPC code. 3) he's buying the wrong tool for that job. 4) if you poke me with that thing again you're gonna have to buy me a drink (this one, about the guy behind me with the cart full of pipe). 5) no you can't pay for that crap with a third party check from a Uzbekistan bank. I don't care how often walmart lets you do that. 6) if you can't figure out how the self-checkout works then why don't you just stay home. 7) next time I'm gonna pay for this in the tool crib.

etc etc etc.

Occasionally I voice the thoughts. Then my daughter hits me. This is almost as much fun as hitting the horn button on the forklifts there as we walk by, and then as the orange apron crowd stares around the corner at us, say in a loud voice: "Margaret, stop fooling around with the fork lift!!"

They leave the keys in those things mostly, ya know.

Home depot, a journey not a destination.

Jim

snip-

Nor do I. These are not examples of someone being dishonest.

Hard to avoid when you look at the counter and that's where they are sitting. To be honest, I'm not sure it was 6. Could have been 5, could have been 7, but one thing I noticed is that they were assembled, and only one piece of each assembly was being scanned. This was relatively fresh on my mind because I've been working with PVC in the course of building our house. I paid for my fittings. No, I won't apologize for watching. It's a public place that is conducting business with the public. I'm entitled to be looking where I please. Often it's elsewhere. That given day I happened to be looking at the counter. Surely you've done that ------ and seen nothing, as I have. This day, for the first time that I recall, I witnessed a dishonest act. I should remain silent? That tells you what about me? I endorse the crime, maybe?

Nor do I. My comments were in favor of the checker. She wasn't a "looker" by today's standards, at least as I understand them. That, in no way, implies that I think she was involved in sexual relations with a customer, and hoped to dispel that notion. It also does not imply that she was a schnauzer. Just a common woman that didn't appear to be on the make. I was implying that I *didn't* think she was involved, but a victim, a concept I conveyed to management when I placed my phone call. The call I'd place again under like circumstances. My character isn't up for grabs because others appear to support the concept of stealing.

First off, this has nothing to do with your space, or that of anyone else. This has to do with a criminal act----stealing. You don't want your *space* violated, then don't give others a reason to do so. That violates my space, your space, and the space of anyone that frequents retail stores-----and it does that by increased prices to cover for those that are stealing----not really from the store, but from their fellow man----the guy that picks up the tab. Surely you realize that it's the same as taxing a business. Business does not pay tax------the customer does. Regardless of how much you tax a corporation, it is simply passed on to the consumer. It's factored in the price of their product. Business operates tax free.

People that avoided intervening when crimes occurred may very well have enjoyed your sense of "space", but suddenly wanted that very space intruded upon when a similar crime was committed against them. If we intend to have harmony in society, we can't selectively uphold crimes-----we're either against dishonest acts, or we're for them. No one is neutral---proven by the fact that all of us won't accept the acts when performed against us. If you're for them, then you must expect that you will also be a victim of them. If you're willing to buy stolen goods, for example, don't be too surprised when it's your house that gets burglarized. While I appreciate your intention, I have little respect for your double standard.

Sorry, but you have that wrong. I didn't judge you-----you did. You told me what you stand for. I simply repeated it. I don't represent those things, although I do have my own shortcomings. I've been working on being a better person----and it's not easy. I don't consider doing nothing when a crime is being committed being a better person. We appear to have different standards, don't we.

Harold

a crime is being committed being a better person. We appear to have

different standards, don't we.

Harold <

Afew years ago some of the local college students and their friends started throwing bottles at police who were attempting to control their activities (setting sofas and dumpsters on fire, etc.). Later they were unable to positivley identify those directly responsible despite the fact of many dozens of people being in the immediate vicinity of the "throwers". During the aftermath many school orginizations spoke out about "the throwing was done by outside people and not students, who after all, were all good citizens". This "good citizen" comment was proven false because no student, of all those present, ever stepped forward to identify the actual throwers (who incidently permenently disfigured one policeman). Social responsibility is a learned value; we're not born with it. Some never learn ANYTHING; witness the terrible sociopathic types of activity around us. No one would deny a citizen's right and responsibility to step in if someone were being PHYSICALLY attacked (although many documented cases of people NOT doing this exist). Your actions mark you as someone who realizes your responsibility as a citizen doesn't stop at your doorstep. I wish you were my neighbor.

dennis in nca

Not really, but it seems you are able to convince yourself that such a polarity does exist. Good luck with that.

Jon

One of these days I'm going to drop a candy bar into your basket and watch while you try and figure out where it came from. :)

Jon

On 16 Nov 2005 12:09:15 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, "rigger" quickly quoth:

Right on, Rig. If you want some horror stories about social behavior, read pages #128-136 in the chapter "Social Proof" in Robert Cialdini's book "Influence". It'll give you nightmares. (Great book, BTW.)

"Civilization" is a myth.

I second the book recommendation.

If you want some true horrors, read a book _Ordinary Men_ about German police batallion 101, comprised of perfectly regular people (not some Nazi elite) who were drafted and sent to round up Jews in Poland. They were not even particularly forced to commit atrocities and could quit. And yet they committed unspeakable horrors. A very disturbing story.

i

Kitty Genovese

38 good citizens witnessed her being murdered over the course of a half hour or more. And no one did dick to help her.

I wonder why this thread brings her to mind?

"The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed, the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line of defense." --Walter Williams

I'm suprised you would bring her up. Aren't you supposed to say "that's what she gets for living in NY?"

Jim

I rest my case! Thanks, Gunner.

Interestingly, look where the biggest loser, with the most vial of comments directed towards me, lives-----It's as if living in heavily populated areas tends to desensitize people---as long as it's not their problem, it isn't happening. Very strange, for eventually your number comes up. Who do you turn to? Why would you expect anyone to care when you didn't?

Harold