ot Railroad ties and gardens

I built my herb garden with crossties. It's about 9 x 20 feet, and 3 feet high. Since I was worried about the creosote leaching into the soil, I lined the inside of the structure with polethylene film. I also applied some "weed stop" fabric to the bottom to keep mint and other persistent pests out. I did this about 15 years ago, and the garden has been superb. Since many of the herbs are perennials, I made sure the soil was pretty good to start with; lots of topsoil and a couple of pickup loads of mushroom compost (smelly for a few days, but the best stuff for growing).

Joe

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

Go for it, I ran a landscape biz for 12 yrs and built lots of things out of used ties. A couple of things to keep in mind: They are very dirty and the creosote can/will irritate your skin. They cut well with a chainsaw, but look out for spikes and other bits of metal buried in them, also you will wreck the chain you use. I used to do the construction and then hit them with the pressure washer, they clean up nice. to hold then together drill 7/16" holes (I used a ships auger bit) and drive

1/2" rebar thru them. For walls step successive courses back approx 1" each. Get a helper they are heavy.

Enjoy

I have used them for 30 years and they work great. Getting them free is great they sell for about $12.00 here.

Creosote isn't harmful in nature. It is a natural repellent for insects. The stuff you want to watch out for is the fresh 'treated' lumber sold in hardware & garden stores. They are pressure treated with arsenic and other unfriendly chemicals. I prefer R.R. ties any time, although they cost about $10 here. Bugs

They'll work fine for planting beds as is. I have RR ties right next to my apple, plum and pear trees and have never had any ill effects.

If you do any joints other than basic lap joints look into Simpson Strong Tie products.

Plan to get your saw blade sharpened after the project.

I used a heavy copper naphthanate preservative still sold legally, and it went on dark and matched perfectly. I used it on the cut ends and on the dry spots. I have lots of RR ties in my yard. Toughest thing is moving a bunch of 'em without a truck.

GWE

The above might be helpful to any who don't have a source of RR ties available.

Chromated Copper Arsenate has been mostly replaced by other chemicals even though the EPA has never labeled it unsafe. Simple painting or varnishing eliminated leaching of the arsenic compound to the surface where people might get some of it on their skin or clothes.

For an opposing view with reported injuries from CCA, see:

Most of those cases seem to involve animals eating treated wood or people burning it -- against industry recommendations. One guy burned it in a grill to cook hot dogs. Another used it in a home fireplace or woodstove.

On 10 Feb 2005 06:44:36 -0800, the inscrutable "Bugs" spake:

It's nearly spring and I'm having a 'unit' dropped here today. $6.99 each bought in units (lots of 25.)

I -won't- be using them near my organic herb and veggie garden.

More info:

(Neutral(?) site)

From

(speaking weasel site) "Many chemicals manufacturers have been producing dangerous or toxic chemicals for decades. Creosote is one of them. Creosote has been regarded as a carcinogenic chemical compound since the late seventies. The substance is often used as a preservative for many structural and permanent wood products. Creosote is made in a high temperature treatment process. Usually derived from coal, various woods or the namesake of the substance: the creosote bush.

Creosote works well as a preservative and a bug repellent. Unfortunately the substance is very common and millions of pounds of creosote are manufactured each year and much is inevitably introduced to the soil, air and ground water. High levels of exposure, or exposure to creosote over time can cause skin problems, kidney and liver problems, possible birth defects, unconsciousness and death. Creosote is often introduced to the body through contact with wood that is treated with creosote in houses, railroad tracks, telephone poles and in other applications; and from drinking water that is contaminated by creosote."

I guess you don't consider that third arm you grew an "ill effect" :) ERS

There are a lot of times I'd consider a third arm to be an advantage.

I grow skeptical of these fears about pollutant-caused mutations. We have some crabs in the cooling stream of a local nuclear reactor that a seafood chef would die for. And, living 6 miles from the Raritan Bay, I'm looking forward to the day when global warming brings the beach up to the back of my yard. As long as it stops right there, of course. d8-)

-- Ed Huntress

IF you are thinking of the long haul.... use stone. I used crossties to landscape my property in the late 70's. Many have turned to mulch... they'll be replaced with stone.

Same problem here....the outside survives well but the cores are not saturated with the stuff so you get a hollow log over time. Still looks great ont he outside but collapses like a cardboard box under pressure.

Also, the last time I pulled any ties the core had carpenter ants living nicely inside as well as a few termites (Washington state on the wet side). They may be a cheap and easy solution but don't think they'll be the best choice in the long run.

The next time I do anything needing a tie or stone, I'll probably go the extra mile and make my own hypertufa blocks. They are fairly light, can be made in any shape you want, look like stone (over time) and last forever if done right. Pretty cheap way to go if you don't include the labor to make them in the costs.

Koz

The ties produced in the last 45 or 50 years are not as well preserved as the early stuff. There are ties from the early '40s in much better shape than many from the early seventies.

pressure.

What are hypertuffa blocks?

By the way, someone said to pressure wash the ties and they will look pretty. Will that take the cresote protection off?

I agree! The ties last a long, long time in a RR bed because they rest on gravel and are well drained. Set them on dirt and they rot much quicker. Well, OK, my terrace walls did last 20 years, but had ferns growing out of them in the end.

Ummm...I said they clean up nice, specifically it will even out the dark brown color and remove loose dust-dirt/ creosote. I suppose if you really pound them with the pressure washer you might remove a few years of protection but the important part is soaked deeply into the wood.

Enjoy

Andrew V

IIRC, creosote has polynuclear aromatics in it and those are generally considered to be harmful.

I don;t think there is a problem with using them for what you describve. I hgave lots of cross ties and power poles in use aorund my place. Creosote will usually kill vegetation, but grass grows up and into the cross ties I have........Lots of folks are paranoid about usjuing pressure treated lumber to build piers etc in ponds etc.......look at most any papers by any university or wildlife divison on building piers and seawalls and you always find cross ties and or PT lumber specified. I have som e cross ties used to uspport a pier, as well as some power poles, which are from from being bleached or dried out, and algae grows most abundantly on them...so I am rather skeptical if any possible leeching is a problem worth getting concerned about. Same for my garden borders, nice juicy cross ties that you can smell on those hot summer days, and my veggies etc grow just fine, and its been in use for years and no one has had problems........once again county co-op agents recomend cross ties and PT lumber for this use.

Perhaps if you live in Kalifornia there may be a regulation in effect , as they seem to have a law for most everything.

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies! Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold the business to Ken Fischer

she has NOT retired from helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

Hypertufa forum:

Also lots of other links to be found with a google or altavista serach, some having better pictures of what can be done.

For those who don't feel like looking around, Hypertufa is essentially concrete which has been mixed with a large amount of organic matter like peat moss. Generally, the gravel portion of the mix is left out. The organic matter makes the block, planter or other structure lighter and also rots away over time leaving what looks like a volcanic stone similar to "tufa" that is often carved in Italy (roman days mostly) to use for troughs and such. After casting the chape, the surface is usually wire brushed while still slightly soft to break the surfaces a little and make it look more like natural stone. I've seen pieces that you could not tell were "manufactured".

Due to the porosity of the block, it tends to grow moss well which enhances it's natural look. I havent had any winter freezing problems with the little I have made but that may be a concern that should be addressed in heavy freeze-thaw climates.

Koz

Aren't you lucky ! This Months (march 05)issue of "this old house " mag has a how to section on hypertuffa blocks. covers how to make molds & has recipes for the mix.

Enjoy

Andrew V