OT: Serial Hybrids


From a conversation on Irc.
The OP spoke of a hybrid model that leaned more to using a small IC engine and a
shorter
range battery system to keep weight down.
My comments replying below:
Based on .5 lb per hp hour, it takes 12 hp to run my car steady state.
Using a 20HP engine to run generation would give 8 hp excess to use to charge
the battery.
12 hp * 1 hr = about 9 kwh.
That would take 9.375 amps for 8 hours to replace if one just wanted to drive
battery
only.
If the parking lot at work was wired, you could recharge the car for the trip
home.
Charge management will be interesting.
If petroleum is cheaper than electricity, then no problem. Don't charge the
batteries.
Assuming electricity is cheaper depending on the time of day, then we have to
variable
price charging based on how many kwh you want stored in what time period. Those
that want
the batteries topped off all the time, pay more.
Those that are willing to be one of the loads that deals with peaks and the
variability of
wind get lower pricing.
Worst case, you go home on gas or diesel.
Problem solved.
Wes
Reply to
Wes
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Our Mech Engineering Dept built a car for a competition about 10 years ago. They used a 2-cyl engine like out of a riding lawnmower. The team leader was a senior ME student, but she converted the engine to EFI using a kit she bought from a company that was hoping to get in on the someday EPA requirement to put EFI and catalytic converters on lawnmowers. The car was a Ford Taurus station wagon, 5-speed (I think). They pulled the big IC engine and put in an 80 Hp traction motor. The challenge required them to run off batteries for 40 miles. I don't remember the size of the 2-cyl engine, but I'm guessing around 15-20 Hp.
the battery.
I think this is awfully optimistic, unless you drive on a 35 MPH limited-access freeway. If you go 55+, or if you have to stop and start, you'll use more energy, unless the car body looks like a Honda Insight. If you had a 300 V battery string, that's only 30 A for one hour. Some modest deep-cycle trolling batteries would do - oh yeah, that's 25 of them! If they are 40 Lbs, thats a half ton! Might see what the latest hybrids are using Ni-MH or Lithium. Vastly less weight and smaller size than lead-acid.
Jon
Reply to
Jon Elson
Yep Li-Ion is the way to go. Check out this guys electric bike.
We put in another 110 of the most powerful Li-Ion cells in the world to make a total of 990 A123Systems M1 cells in the bike. This pushed the power output to over 350 HP. We are now able to draw 1575 amps from the 375 volt, 7.5 kW-hr battery pack. There are just 161 lbs of cells in this pack.
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Best Regards Tom.
Reply to
azotic
e and a shorter
arge the battery.
e the batteries.
=A0Those that want
he variability of
To me the serial hybrid is more efficient than the parallel. In a series hybrid the engine when running is always running at fixed speed a load, the most economical type of operation, while in a parallel hybrid the engine has a variable speed and load.
The best is the hybrid hybrid, like the Prius where the fancy "transmission" splits BOTH speed and torque, allowing the engine to run at fixed load and constant rpm even when "mechanically" connected to the drive wheels.
The series hybrid is usually a bit heavier than the parallel one. Don't know the parametrics of the Prius, but that sure sounds like a good solution.
However, lacking such a fantastic type gear box, if I were building a hybrid, I'd go series. The parallel hybrid is just a regular car with an electric motor boost.
Reply to
Don Stauffer in Minnesota
Buddy of mine built an electric cycle with 2 deep cycle marine batteries, the performance was disappointing
He ordered 200+ D size NiMH and built a pack
it improved, some =)
Then there was the charging accident, he lost 1/3 of the pack.
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Reply to
Jon
I gather we're not talking about bicycles, here. I attempted to build an electric-hybrid many years ago. A friend donated a massively rusted-out VW beetle, I got a jet engine starter/generator from Surplus Center and a transaxle adaptor from Kaylor. The bayonet mount was missing from the motor/gen, so I had to make that. I used 4 90 AH trolling batteries and an electronic controller for the motor field, only. The motor would not go below 3000 RPM, and made quite a racket. But, it was quite responsive, clearly more peppy than the original VW engine. I had no plates on the thing, so I was reluctant to go too far with it and explore the range. I would guess I could get 10 miles or more out of it on batteries alone. I then tried to add a Honda 350 motorcycle engine and a stratofortress generator to make it a hybrid. My mods to bring a crankshaft extension out the side of the engine were inadequate, and it was clear it would break shortly. It also was massively out of balance. So, the whole coupling needed to be redone, and I eventually sold the Beetle. I've still get the rest of the parts except the batteries, which died from disuse.
OUCH! Hope nobody got hurt! How much did that set him back?
Jon
Reply to
Jon Elson
The problem with the Prius is it has a huge 4-cyl engine, because Toyota has a big plant built to make 4-cyl engines. The Honda Insight has a 953 (I think) CC 3-cyl engine and that is definitely going in the right direction. There was a guy selling an Insight with stick shift that had a LIFETIME average of 81 MPG! That's his average over 130,000 road miles! WOW! I really WANT one of those, but my wife says "practical, practical" and the Insight is a 2-seater. The "king" of hypermiling borrowed somebody's totally stock Insight and set a record of 181 MPG on a city road course last year.
Yes, far easier for the garage mechanic to make a series system.
Jon
Reply to
Jon Elson
Actually 12 HP is real world using gasoline in a 2001 Saturn SL1. I drive about 35 miles each way to work. Part rural road, non divided highway interstate. The interstate has some fair elevation changes.
I don't have to do a lot of stop and start, outside of the end of driveway, end of section road, nad turning on to the non divided highway, I can often never stop again.
In that 12 HP is a some acceleration and a lot of climbing hills. Decending can be a pay back to some degree but since wind resistance increases at the square of velocity, what you put in going up, you don't get back going down.
As far as using wind generated electric power, does anyone have an idea how much new electric generation in KWH would be needed to go totally electric in replacing the IC engine with electric? I have a feeling wind isn't going to do it. Nuclear most likely.
Wes
Reply to
Wes
Seems to me the battery capacity would be a big clue. Anyone know what the capacity of the packs in those plug-in conversion is? That would be the max energy of a charge.
Wes wrote:
about 35 miles
end of section
can be a pay
Reply to
Don Stauffer
o drive battery
I had a VW with a 1200CC engine of ~25HP, IIRC, when I was in Germany. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the 36HP version like I had later. On the level Autobahn along the Rhine near Baden-Baden it could reach 100 Km/ Hr (62 MPH) after 15 minutes of flat-out acceleration. I didn't mind because I usually picked the most interesting back roads when driving it and used Army vehicles and aircraft to actually go somewhere.
Reply to
Jim Wilkins
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Has he crashed on a sidewalk lately? I would like to be able to ride an electric motorcycle, but don't need that kind of power. I travel 65 miles per day for work on reasonable mountain roads, or only 37 on some twisty one-lane roads that climb in and out of canyons. I may want to go into town for lunch, or go 35 extra miles into the town with "big box" stores after work. On the weekend I may want to travel. I would not buy a vehicle to only get to work, but would want to use it for multiple purposes. This seems to be the problem with current electric vehicles, short range. I would love to convert one of my old goldwings to electric, but if i cant ride it 800 miles in a day, what's the point?
Reply to
Stupendous Man
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 09:28:19 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Wes quickly quoth:
about 35 miles
end of section
can be a pay
Nuke, almost definitely.
Here's a fun EV dirt bike. I can't wait for the street version next year.
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prices from this guy are UNREAL!
-- Smokey the Bear's rules for fire safety should apply to government: Keep it small, keep it in a confined area, and keep an eye on it. --John Stossel in _Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity_
Reply to
Larry Jaques
Sorry that it took me awhile to get back on this...
It is currently speculated that 150 million cars could be charged/serviced using off-peak electric generation. I always knew that there was a bunch of unused watts around but didn't realize just how many.
The Diane Rehm show had a segment on last week discussing electric cars and generating the juice to run them. Interesting stuff, even with my high degree of skepticism. See (it was the second hour show):
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Shut off a whole bunch of worthless outside lights and you could charge even more...
You might want to check out Tesla's website too, one of the owners was interviewed on the show. There car/roadster is pricey (~$107,000) but I understand one heck of a fun ride. I hadn't heard of them before. See:
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Reply to
Leon Fisk
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:47:32 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Leon Fisk quickly quoth:
No fewer than 3 pictures of her in the header? Is the woman vain, or what? =:0 OK, firing up the viewer now...
Yeah, the quantity of lights left on everywhere at night still astounds me.
Ooh! Ooh! I want a blue one! (May I have/borrow $107k, please?)
-- Smokey the Bear's rules for fire safety should apply to government: Keep it small, keep it in a confined area, and keep an eye on it. --John Stossel in _Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity_
Reply to
Larry Jaques
That is an interesting data point.
She is one of the more list enable personalities on NPR.
For sure. Every morning on the drive to work, I see so many out side lights burning fuel accomplishing nothing. Everyone is home sleeping in their beds, pointless use of energy.
I've heard of the Telsa. A bit outside my price point atm. Electric cars have the potential to be a lot of fun off the line since electric motors have a very flat torque curve compared to the IC engine.
Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Reply to
Wes
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 04:23:37 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Wes quickly quoth:
most likely.
That's like saying that our cars are wasting RPM because they're not winding out all the time. Potential and sane use are two different things, though nighttime electrical use isn't as insane as running an engine just below redline all the time. It will cause more frequent maintenance issues on the Grid.
'Sprain "list enable", preese.
And diminishing to the plethora of astronomical observatories in the world.
0-60mph in 3.9 seconds? Damned straight, they'd be _awfully_ fun vehicles. You'd even beat most hot bikes.
-- Smokey the Bear's rules for fire safety should apply to government: Keep it small, keep it in a confined area, and keep an eye on it. --John Stossel in _Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity_
Reply to
Larry Jaques
The grid and our generating was built for peak. This would make a really good way of storing (in the car battery) energy that could be made and used currently. Those huge turbines are churning away whether any of us are using what they could be generating or not. That has always been a huge problem/bugaboo with electric generation.
Someone on the DR show mentioned that there was only one production car in the world that could out accelerate the Tesla Roadster. Some model of Lamborghini if I recall correctly.
Tesla is suppose to be coming out with a four door Coupe that will cost around half that of the current Roadster. The fellow fully admitted that they were expensive and not for the masses. He is hoping that prices come down much like the early automobile did. Only rich people could afford the early automobiles.
Reply to
Leon Fisk
Bad spell check. Listenable.
burning fuel
of energy.
Yes, the damn glow of useless lighting, for the most part, is visible from miles away.
Well if I ever play the lotto (and win) I'll look you up and take you for a test ride.
WEs -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Reply to
Wes
I've always thought EV's would make a nice load balancer. The big issues are life cycle cost and range. Solve those and a lot of people will embrace EV's.
Rich or well off people have financed a lot of products coming to market over the years. cell phones, VCR's, personal computers, high def TV, pharmaceuticals, ...
Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Reply to
Wes
Pardon me, but are you implying it takes the same input power to run a turbine if it's supplying no output power as it does when fully loaded???? ...lew...
Reply to
Lew Hartswick

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