OT Walmart and you

snip

Management allowed wages to get this high because of their own

You've addressed this already. You want to see workers get their wages in line with a "living wage" right? Why not expect this from our leaders? Lead by example - what a joke - "Do as I say, not as I do". You think corporate & government leaders are going to give up their outlandish pay, pensions, bonuses, financial loopholes, etc.? Fat chance. I dare say it will take a revolution to do this. The top of the food chain in the capitalistic world we live is the investor. Corporate & fund managers feel driven to report astronomical yearly growth numbers. It's artificially too high - heard of Enron, Worldcom, etc.? It seems possible to me that this system could have limits or at least some functional checks & balances. I feel that no manager should have his raises/bonuses directly tied to the AMOUNT of a business's financial growth. Greed makes this a collision course to a failed endeavor. Many of us have 401K's to help us think we'll have something for our retirement. We are all at the top of the food chain in this regard. Sure I'd like my money to do well but not at the cost of imploding the system. I'm not greedy & don't want constant double-digit growth reports from my investments. No system could support itself this way for long. The entire time I've been in a 401K system (about 13 years now) I have been amazed at the monumental growth of mutual funds, stocks, etc. It's no wonder the rich get richer with this system. It seems doomed to fail.

Reply to
Stephen Young
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All that stuff is gone now, Harold. I don't know if you've been following the details in the press about a Large Blue Computer Company has been dealing with the pension issue, but in a nutshell, this is it:

Whatever you thought you were getting, forget about it.

I've come to the realization that nobody will be paying for my retirement, ever. Not my employer, not the government. Yet the employer is making lots of profit, and the government has me paying SS tax as well.

From one of the best companies to work for, over ones lifetime, to one of the worst, in about 20 years. The article in the Week in Review section of the NY Times made that pretty clear - as a pension plan goes I had better start saving now, even more so.

There used to be quite an incentive to be loyal to one's employer. There used to be such things as careers. Now it's basically a job.

There's quite some incentive for folks with skills and talents to take it on the road and see where else in the world their skills could be employed. Seems like folks who rely on a productive workforce (SS recipients?) would be worried if all the corporate changes happening now are giving the wage earnes a big incentive to move elsewhere.

Eventually there won't be anyone doing any work, and there won't be any taxes being paid. What happens when the last guy turns out the light?

Honestly I'm not picking on you personally Harold. I'm more commiserating than anything else. I just shudder to think what my daughter is going to face when she enters the workforce.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

Reply to
carl mciver

Funny thing, I keep hearing the "living wage" crap from people who are actually alive, therefore they seem to be earning a "living wage." Only if they were dying from starvation (starving with a cell phone and big screen TV is not really starving!) would I tend to believe them, but it hasn't happened yet.

Reply to
carl mciver

We're in lock step, Stephen. Just because I don't single out management doesn't mean I endorse them. All of us have to take a realistic look at the scene and make decisions accordingly. If we hope to have jobs in this country in the future, everyone needs to re-evaluate their position.

Frankly, if people can't live reasonably on $50,000 year, they're doing something wrong. I have no respect for folks that are knocking down hundreds of thousand per year, generally at the cost of others doing without. It's the one thing that prevents us from donating to *any* charity. If the CEO makes big bucks, we're out.

Do people really need a new car every year? A 6,000 square foot house? Several trips to Hawaii annually? Three boats? Is paying more than $4.00 for a cup of coffee really necessary? Bottled water, when it's been proven time and again that it is generally no better than that which comes from one's tap? Cigarettes @ $4+ per pack, only to destroy one's health? Humans suck. They do most things for the wrong reasons, and have a dreadful value system. We all need to experience some hard times-----hard enough to shake us back to reality. Life can be rewarding and interesting without trying to keep up with the guy next door, or trying to impress him with our outlandish life style.

I live a humble, frugal life, and I'm content. Trust me, it can be done.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

Harold maybe you need to re-calibrate your wage scale a bit.

To put this in persepective, I've never bought a new car in my life. I'm currently fielding a 1984 toyota camry and a 93 pickup. They both have over 100K miles on each one.

Granted I do keep a couple of motorbikes on the road, because with the cost of gas these days it's actually pleasant to pay three bucks for a fillup. Credit cards? Sure, but they get paid off each month, there are some things you can't do with 'em, like rent a car.

Don't smoke, the water is basically free from the croton aqueduct (and possibly some of the best in the world, . The house is about 1300 sq feet and the last time I took a vacation was a long-delayed honeymoon week in a cabin in NH in about 1982. Every spare nickel goes into savings for my kid to go to college. My one ace up my sleeve is my wife - who I have not yet sent back to work yet. Wait till the college bills come due....

And I've been working for the research arm of a major corporation. Not with a PhD, you understand but for over 20 years. Not in management, but still one would think that by this time there would be a bit of daylight in the budget. Not that I'm complaining, but when you put numbers out there, consider that some of the posters here hail from the northeast. For now, that is....

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

You are asking the wrong question - the question is, does society now promise anything? The answer is clearly starting to be 'no, and we're not delivering on any previous promises either.'

The name of the game in both the private and public sector now is, 'make somebody else pick up the tab so there's more money for me (us).'

Consider how the airlines, and corporations like Walmart are so profitable based on the theory of Externalization. Which is basically, things like pensions and heathcare costs are not going to be paid out of corporate profits.

Somebody Else's Problem. The SEP factor.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

----snip lots of good stuff (thanks, Ed)

Chuckle! And we do that how? I think, for the first time, you're saying pretty much what I've been saying right along, but with lots of class. Thanks for your time, Ed.

We're screwed. We can't isolate ourselves from the world. Workers will have less money in their pockets (assuming they can find jobs), but the offset will come from lower prices on goods. That's assuming we can get upper level management and investors to tighten their collective belts, too.

Hell yes, that's gonna happen.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

Not pickin' on you but management runs the show. If change doesn't start at the top level first, do you think the bottom level should change all on their own? Why? If all involved aren't required to change together, here comes the part I've said about revolution... kinda brings back the

1700's - something about taxation without representation and so forth. Basically, unchecked management.

Wow! That's a fabulous wage! I'd be tickled pink with that much money!

Reply to
Stephen Young

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:50:34 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, "Harold and Susan Vordos" quickly quoth:

And a totally non-religious "Amen" to that.

I find local charities, like the local battered women's shelter, to donate to at Christmas in lieu of giving presents to everyone. Most everyone donates time to it and the bigwigs get a reasonably small salary.

Very well put, Harold. "Keeping up with the Joneses? Hell, I can't even keep up with the Simpsons."

Ditto here. My two splurge-weaknesses are tools and books. A guy's gotta have SOME vices, wot? ;)

--- Annoy a politician: Be trustworthy, faithful, and honest! ---

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Reply to
Larry Jaques

| Frankly, if people can't live reasonably on $50,000 year, they're doing | something wrong. I have no respect for folks that are knocking down | hundreds of thousand per year, generally at the cost of others doing | without. It's the one thing that prevents us from donating to *any* | charity. If the CEO makes big bucks, we're out.

You must live somewhere cheap. In San Francisco, nobody can live for any where near that amount or even twice as much. The citizens, in order to create a more perfect society, have elected officials who, in order to create a more perfect society, have priced any one/family who makes around $100K or less out of town. A $250,000 house wouldn't last a minute on the market!

A side note, the "wealthy" donate far less than the middle class, who make up the largest bulk of donations of all kinds. I don't have the statistic handy, but per capita, it's true.

Reply to
carl mciver

Good point! Some folks seem to think that life demands every possible luxury in order for quality of life to be acceptable. I don't remember anyone giving me any guarantees when I was born. I was offered the opportunity to get an education (which I more or less ignored), and to better myself through my efforts. Work eight for eight was very much a part of how I was raised. Nowhere, at any time, did anyone tell me that I'd be able to own everything my heart desired.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

No, of course not, and I hope I didn't imply that they should. I often don't make a distinction between management and blue collared workers, for we're all in the same boat. I feel the same way you do. The one difference is that workers generally have nothing invested in their jobs, unlike the owner, who has everything to gain, and everything to lose, depending on the course of his business. An owner has a right to make a profit, but it, like my wages, should be reasonable. That's where pretty much all Americans have lost their way----it rarely IS reasonable, be they management or workers. How can you otherwise explain the fact that American jobs are gone -------possibly for good. The resistance to change and accept reasonable pay brings to mind an example that was set for us about 20 years ago. Anyone recall the air traffic controllers strike? It ended just as it should have. They lost their jobs because of unreasonable demands. I don't know when I've been any more proud of a president aside from the day Kennedy spoke about the Cuban missile crisis.

Exactly my point. I never made that much in my life, and I've had it pretty good, at least by my measure. Of course, I don't smoke, don't drink to excess, don't consider $60 dinners with $50 bottles of wine as necessary (nor do I ever pay that for them), have never sucked that white powder up my nose, and I don't pay for cable television and cell phones. I'm not a clothes horse and don't give a damn what the neighbor does-----I buy what I need and can carry money in my pocket endlessly without spending it. I live a frugal life, but a rich one.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

Chuckle! Sure as hell do! Onalaska, WA, where our 5-1/2 acres of land cost a whopping $17,500 when it was purchased in '90. The standing timber was worth more than we paid, but being a dumb city slicker (from the general SLC, Utah area), I had no clue.

Having read Jim's comments, a kid (he's young enough to be my son) I have long admired, I'm keeping watch on the parcel of land behind me, with him in mind. Sounds like he's about ready to live where you don't need a half million bucks in your pocket to buy groceries, and I can't imagine a better neighbor. :-)

I've been to San Francisco, and, frankly, I don't get it. Don't much like the place, never have. Don't like Vegas, either. Used to like Reno, but not any more. I've grown to enjoy my own company and the peace and quiet of our remote location.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

That's the key. Work urban to make urban wages, but live rural to take advantage of lower housing (and other) costs.

The commute kills ya though. Around here it's folks you see who get on the train up above poughkeepsie, for a two hour ride into manhattan. They make a living but they spend four hours of it riding the train each day. This doesn't count the time it takes them to *to* the train at each end.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

Around here 250K is called a starter home. Might have two bedrooms, will be guaranteed to have at least two, probaby three roofs on top of it. It will have a bad septic system and will need a new well too.

This is up from when we bought our house - at that time a starter home like that could be had for slightly less than 100K, if one were willing to do major structural repairs.

Anyone who thinks there is irony or sarcasm in the comments immediately above can come to the westchester county area and view some homes with a realtor. You will find they are pretty much spot on.

And thank you harold, for the kind thoughts. The problem with relocating within the US is the same issue that the government will shortly be cranking up the inflation machine. Real jobs are getting scarce so the tax base is shrinking. This means while savings get eaten up, the tax rate will have to increase to keep funding whatever entitlement programs are left.

You can't win, you can't break even, you can't get out of the game.

Unless you figure out some way to get out of the game.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

And driving is worse. At least on the train you might have the chance to chill and read a book or something. If you're into a 1.5 hr drive each way, it will suck the life out of you.

10 yrs ago I had a gig featuring a 1 hour each way commute through the worst Washington DC traffic there was. Once as I sat in the endless traffic I estimated the time and mileage was using up something like $5,000/year of pay, not counting the gas money which is probably where the real money is, or spiritual wear and tear for that matter.

The really bad thing was we had to hit the road at no lather than 5:30am in a carpool to have a hope of beating traffic. In the winter it was dark when leaving and dark when getting back to the carpool lot so on at least one occasion I was so tired I forgot which way I was going; got in the car, started it to leave, thought I had just got there to go to work, shut it off and got back out before realizing it. I was glad to get out of there, they stiffed me the health insurance they never exactly promised and had real SOB's as clients.

Gregm

Reply to
Greg Menke

A couple of random notes.

  1. What constitutes a living wage is not just a question of having enough food and roof over one's head. It is a social standard. A living wage, for example, may be considered an amount sufficient to have a room in a communal apartment per family and enough money to buy bread and potatoes, some meat and used clothes (Soviet standard of
1950s). Or, it could be enough to have a small house, two low priced cars, car insurance, cable TV and medical insurance (more in line with the US definition).

  1. Retired people should not extrapolate their own financial situation to middle age working people. The latter typically have more expenses, such as house mortgage (which normally gets paid off by retirement age), children (with related expenses), higher car insurance due to actually having to drive daily, medical expenses (not covered by Medicare), etc etc. People with children in the house also need to pay for a bigger house.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus16163

I take a 32 min train ride each way myself and it is not bad. I sleep on the train or read stuff.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus16163

I am pretty much out of the game. Although I will be going back to work on Monday. Just for a bit to help out the company while they switch to a different computer program.

I have been to Westchester county and the housing prices are terrible. Not just houses but the general cost of living is high. Relocating is not quite as bad as Jim says.

Reply to
dcaster

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