OT Walmart and you

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

snip

Aha. You're starting to use the right word. See below.

You loved the fact that the president stepped in and eliminated PATCO workers, right? Management stopping "unearned wages and benefits". Why didn't the managers of other similar business situations make you proud also? They caved in and allowed these "unearned wages and benefits", that's why. Again, managers run the show and they've allowed it to get where it is now. This is when it becomes "fashionable". Every 3 years or so, new contracts are agreed upon. Management continuously has opportunities to stop the negative trends but they don't. Know why? Greed. "We all have to get back to work so we can have record bottom line numbers every year which is how I get my absurd raises & bonuses so, OK" -shhh(I won't say it aloud but we ARE making record profits)shhh-, "I'll give in to your demands". These are professional managers again, NOT owners. Manage for TODAY and TOMORROW'S COMPETITION will eat you up. They are ultimately looking for TODAY'S dollar. Period. I actually had a former manager tell me he could manage anything. He said he didn't need to know anything about the company's product - that's for sales people, engineers and quality control. It's just a matter of handling numbers. He was right. Incredibly shortsighted but right. So what if a manager loses his job due to competition closing his employer down, "I'll manage someone else's widgets somewhere else". It's happening all over the US. I've also seen reports of managers losing their jobs in the US, not being able to find work in their profession here so they've moved overseas! I don't EVER want to get to this point.

Not hard for me. Management allowed it. They run the show.

But are they?

Absolutely.

And management is not guilty of poor vision also? Certainly management doesn't have the RIGHT to screw employees but our leaders in government have given them the POWER to do so.

Absolutely. It's doomed to fail.

Yep, we're all going to lose in the end. My position is simply this: To stop or slow down this process, a VERY fundamental change has to occur at management level FIRST.

I agree.

Just for the record, I realize that sometimes a family doesn't have a choice. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made in the short term so that you can make ends meet. But, I would never trade the well being of my family for a boat, or a bigger house.

Sorry, but I must disagree. Demanding unearned money is the greatest of evils where a monetary system is concerned. Think about it. It devalues the basis of the system. Relate it to gold, as I've done. Why would it be any different for other mediums? If one can increase their value through education and services, yes, I agree, there's nothing wrong with more money, because you're also providing more for the money. The key is earned, or not. Unearned money gives cause for increased prices, which are sure to follow. It's like picking one's self up by the bootstraps. Makes a great story, but, sadly, doesn't work.

Harold

No, working for free is worse. It devalues the system for anyone else.

Equally bad is when a company demands free work of its employees as a condition of employment. See elsewhere a lawsuit involving one large blue computer company.

I'm working for walmart apparently.

Jim

True, though I'm unaware of anyone doing so today, at least here in the States (hourly workers). By sharp contrast, many workers are being paid far and away more than their real worth. I offer the Ford workers that are facing losing their jobs as an example. Ford's itching to dump them, secure in the knowledge that, while it will be costly up front, in the long haul, they'll be far better off. I dare say that future workers won't be able to push management into such circumstances again, and, if they're wise, they won't try. Not with other countries looking to take their jobs from them.

I assume that's the slippery slope one must face when appointed to management, or to a salaried position. There are laws on the books that supposedly protect hourly workers. (I may have used the term "supposedly" too loosely in this instance. Feel free to enlighten me if so).

You know, Jim, I had to make some serious decisions about my future when I was younger-----and in spite of the fact that I had no formal education, I made one of the smartest decisions anyone can make. I decided to work for myself, and, luckily, I was qualified to do so. I was exempt from all the BS that being an employee has to offer. The only thing that it required of me was to form relationship with industry whereby I bid on work and performed as required by contracts. How they ran their business, or how they treated their employees made no difference to me. I secured my own future.

That was my way of dealing with what I considered the inequities of management. I had more than my share of examples set for me in that regard with my last job, where nine owners worked in the shop and couldn't agree on so much as one thing. In essence, I took control of my own life. I knew damned well I couldn't entrust it to others.

Chuckle!

Well, at least you're working! Many aren't.

Are you good on the machines? I know you're smart, we've talked about your good thinking right along----but can you make it come out of your hands? Not everyone can that runs machines---even when they see themselves as accomplished. Sometimes it's all in their head-----if you get my drift.

Have you given any thought to being self employed, assuming you enjoy running the machines? It beats the hell out of punching in and accounting to someone else for your every moment. You can actually earn some money, too, assuming you're not afraid of work. Maybe buy that first new vehicle, assuming you'd like one.

It requires serious dedication. My two businesses were resounding successes because I cared------and always dedicated myself as required, when required. Sometimes you can't go to the beach, or take that ride you've been yearning to take, but the rewards of being self employed are well worth the few inconveniences.

Harold

Back when I was 19 I had a job at a McDonald's In Rochester, MI. Owner had 5 stores. He called up our store manager on Easter Sunday & tried to get him to ask all of us minimum wage earners to actually work for free that day. He said McDonald's controls which days franchises are to be open & Easter was one of those days. He complained that since most people stayed at home for meals, there were hardly any paying customers coming in so we weren't working hard anyways. "Please help me out OK?". At least THAT manager told him no to this cost cutting idea. Multifrickin' millionaire wants more. GREED sucks.

Wow! As much as I demand people be paid in keeping with their qualifications, I also demand that they be PAID! It might have been different if there had been some catastrophe, and the guy needed some support while he got back on his feet---but that deal clearly sucks.

I've always pretty much practiced what I preach. I rarely made a killing on a job-----I tried to bid fairly,and worked hard for the money when I was awarded contracts. However, there was one job that repeated time and again, and started out just barely making shop rate. As time went on, I kept coming up with better and better ways to handle the parts, plus I was expected to buy the base components from which they were made, whereas when I first ran the job the connector (wire wrap connector with gold plated pins) was furnished.

The last time I ran the job, I had it to the point where I was making about $200/hour. The buyer was pleased with the price he was paying, which had not gone up over the span of a few years, in spite of the cost of gold having gone up considerably in the same time. I had turned what was a poor job into a good one through innovation and skill. The job came to me when the buyer was unhappy with the results he was receiving from another machine shop. In this case, I clearly earned more than the job was worth, but only in my hands, and I'm the one that created the process, for which I was handsomely paid. A guy off the street wouldn't stand a chance of duplicating my results. Clearly a case of selling skills that came about through the school of hard knocks.

I can't recall the number of times I ran small projects for folks for free, but that was MY idea, not that of the recipient. It's as simple as this: When you work for free, anything you may have made is taken from your pocket and placed in the pocket of the recipient.

I agree. Greed sucks, be it at the lowest level, or management.

Harold

Actually I still have a crumpled, stained post from Ed, back when he was first posting here, before his hiatus from rcm. Basically it was 'so you want to start your own business' and some comments from somebody who did, and what the pitfalls are. Quite sobering honestly.

Another reason I've held off is because of my wife's experience being a sole proprietor of a business. Granted while she's a heck of a lawyer, she wasnt' much for the details of running a business. And let me tell you, if you want to generate marital discord, try suggesting to your spouse that she should be modifying her business practices.

I can't tell who's harder-headed, her or me.

That experience taught me that a steady paycheck from somebody else who has to worry about ever single other business issue is sometimes a blessing - even if means not being the captain of one's own fate.

I suspect the most important thing about running one's own business is filling a specific need well, for a steady group of customers. Doing one or two things so well you can beat out any competition. The other approach would be to try to find some specific service or product where there really *isn't* much competition.

It's an interesting target of opportunity for me, but I haven't found that irresistible plan yet. Still looking though!

Jim

Good post Jim.

I find that combining work and a part time business is what seems to make me feel secure and makes me a second income. Hence, I have algebra.com, cooldictionary.com, and sell stuff on ebay, besides having a day job.

I used to be a "computer consultant", being in business for myself, but that's on paper only -- in reality a "computer consultant" sells his labor just like regular employees, what differs is only the papers that we sign.

Nowadays, computer consulting is no longer as lucrative as it was, hence I have been employed at one place as an employee for over 5 years.

Jim, I can relate to that. I've worked for my current employer for 28 years now. During that time I've owned 4 businesses. I hired managers, and covered the evenings and weekends and such. Any one of those would have done better had I run them fulltime. Any one of them would have made me a good living. But when you have a good job, enjoy your work, and get some benefits, it's sometimes worthwhile to give up some authority for a solid paycheck. Even more, you can walk away at 5:30 everyday and leave it behind you. Weekends are yours too. Not so in most small businesses. of course, at the moment I'm so fed up with this place I'm about to give it another shot!

snip

Wow! Sounds like you weren't fair with the company back then & generated unearned wages. Seems you spoke of this already. Are you aware of how business works today? That buyer would be fired for dereliction of duty! Didn't do his homework. He should have studied your process & charted it's improvements. Every time a contract comes up for renewal, most companies demand "value added" service. It is expected of you to do exactly what you did - improve whatever you provide for the company. These improvements will reduce the cost to do business so you are expected to pass this savings along to the company. To cut costs, managers aren't even doing THIS anymore. What the company does is this - they go back 3 years worth of contracts with suppliers to find out all the money they've been paid. Then the supplier is told if he wants to continue receiving contracts he must GIVE BACK 10% of what he made. Been going on for several years now.

I can't speak for Harold, but I'd tell them to find someone else to make their parts. "This Ain't Wal-Mart"

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Gunner wrote on Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:09:47 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :

Other night, I'm hacking my way through the nth zillion x-clip. I am not having a good day, haven't for two weeks now). I say tot he Supervisor "Leonard, I've a suggestion, lets outsource these x-clips to the Chinese." His response? "We're thinking about sending the Robo work to a guy in Wenatchee." "Oh, goody, I've always wanted to live in Eastern Washington!" (Wenatchee is actually in Central Washington, but from here, everything is "eastern". Even cowboys. But I digress.)) Seems there's a guy in central Washington with the same machines, and no work, and because his costs are lower (taxes, regulations, etc), he can do the work for less than it is costing us. Good news, bad news, you betcha.

tschus pyotr

Then yesterday, I was pulled off the X-clips, sort of as a reward for good behavior, only the tools weren't ready when I got to work. SO I told Leonard "I was going to ask if I could just run X-clips till the tools are ready..." The look on his face was priceless!

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Gunner wrote on Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:20:10 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :

Sounds like most of my life, going back to ... hmmm, well there was that time in '99 ... (I can't wait till January. We'll all be able to say "Back in ought six") Not making fun of the Gunner, just recognize that as a life style. Sometimes I ;live that way because I can't afford the "goodies", sometimes because I still have not seen a need for "the goodies".

Necessity is a mother.

There is an old Yiddish tale of the professional schnorrer ('beggar', the sort who makes it possible for others to be more blessed by giving.) He meets a woman who wants to be his wife, and he says "but first, you must accompany me for a year, and see what it is I do for a living." She agrees, and three hundred and sixty five days later, he turns to her and says "It has been a year. Now you do not have to beg with me." She says "All right. But first, let us finish this street, there looks to be some good prospects on it." Once you start, you tend not to stop. Even if you can afford to.

pyotr

Chuckle!

Yep, that's exactly what I'd have done, too. How I machined the parts was proprietary information, using a process I developed. You have to understand that I am not a run-of-the-mill machinist. I dedicated myself to getting better than everyone around me, and worked at providing the best service and quality available. . Did I manage to do that? Well, not nearly as well as I'd have liked, but I earned a reputation for getting it right, first time, on time, for a fair price, every time. Industry was well aware of my presence, and often turned to me when there were problems. Big name industry, too, not just some backyard operation, like mine was. I counted amongst my customers, Univac, Litton Guidance & Control and Becton-Dickinson Pharmaceutical. Excellent work in all cases.

While I realize Stephen is having some fun with me, the harsh reality is (and I already mentioned it in a previous post) this job came to me because it was being scrapped regularly by another shop. The losses for the corporation involved (Univac) were horrendous, because they were providing the connector, and getting delayed when acceptable product was not being delivered on time. Had they turned to another shop, maybe they'd have solved the problem, maybe not. Hard to say. One thing for sure is, they turned to me and found success. I became soul source on the connector until the project ended. It took running the job over a period of a couple years to work out the problems. It started out barely making shop rate. It's not like I jumped in and made it work-----normal machining procedures didn't work with the material---which was the reason the other shop was having problems.

It's one of the rare jobs where when I finally started making good money, I knew that it was because of me, and my machining skills. It's the part about my strong belief in educating yourself until you have value above that of the average man. To not have collected the value of my research would have been insane. For them to send the job to another shop in the hopes of saving a few bucks would, likewise, have been insane. They'd already been through that and it wasn't working. Besides, would another shop have dedicated any time to research in order to increase production? It's not always what happens, especially when people have a "pay day is Friday" attitude.

You might look at it this way:

You can get oats that have been run through the horse for a bargain price (parts from the other shop), but if you want nice, clean, fresh oats, you must pay more. I had the good oats. I earned the money. And, the price was never any higher than they were used to paying. They got a good deal, and I did as well, thanks to my innovative ways.

Harold

major snip

Not joking, I'm in Michigan & this is happening all the time with the auto companies. I work in it.

First, my sympathy. I shake my head in wonder at how that particular industry hasn't learned much from past experiences. Is it yet another example of how we, in the US, have lost sight of how much we've had, for so long? Regardless, the easy ride is over. There will be few, if any, high paying jobs in the future. Labor will work for their worth, likely based on the world market (with a serious readjustment on what constitutes a living wage), or the job will go to other countries. The auto industry is one of the places where there's been hemorrhaging for way too long, top to bottom. Couple that with an "I don't give a damn" attitude about quality, and it's a natural for the corporations to fail.

Harold

Yet again Ed puts it in terms even I can understand.

I think government has a role to play here too. Then can try to soften the blow by evening up the trade between the US and china, even if in a small way, and for a short time.

I think they also need to stop bailing out companies and investors as harold says, that are using this opportunity to cash more profit out of the short term flux going on here, while their actions sink their companies over the long run.

In other words, if 'free market' means the consumer can get screwed then it also means the investors and corporate management can be on the receiving end sometimes, too - and no bailout lollipops from the taxpayers.

Jim

To clarify, when I say "I work in it", I mean I work in Michigan - I don't work for an auto company. Working here, invariably you become affected by the auto companies & you become familiar with how they operate. It's sickening.