OT Walmart and you

Damned right! Who the hell steps in if I screw up? Tough for me----I should have made better choices. That should apply to everyone, not just a select few.

GM is on the ropes right now.

Screw 'em!

If they can't run their business in a profitable way, it *should* go under. Make room for others that have a better plan.

Top level management down, including the unions, if they want to pull it out, everyone takes a huge pay cut, and they get their head out of their collective asses and start producing the best quality available. It's a shame that we're so capable of great work, but no one cares to do it. "That's good enough for who it's for". Well, it isn't, and the Japanese have been teaching that lesson for years, but we're apparently not learning it.

The auto industry is a particularly sore spot with me, due in part to the years of making substandard autos, at ever increasing cost, and, once again, paying tens of thousands of workers far more than their real worth in wages. When such industries overcharge, the trickle down effect is staggering. Look at what is happening with oil------the recent round of price hikes will have a devastating effect on all of us-----higher prices on verything* ---it's just a matter of time.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos
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Frankly, I'm pleased to hear you're not directly affected. Still, you don't have to like what you see.

An old school buddy worked there, having left Utah years ago. He worked for Holley Carburetor as I recall, as an engineer. Haven't talked to him in years, but I can't help but think that he'd have some tales to tell.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

That's a tougher thing to accomplish than many seem to think, especially when you're the country who's pushing for freer trade. However, there are some things that can be done.

If you follow the writing from the really forceful free-trade proponents around the world -- the IMF, _The Economist_, the _Financial Times_, etc., they generally agree on where the US's approach is weak, and they don't think it's because we allow too much imbalance in trade. They think we don't do enough to soften the blow for individual people who are displaced. That, too, is a tougher thing to accomplish than it sounds.

The division among the free-traders is between those who look only at growth in GDP, and those who focus on how it's supposed to improve individual lives. If the idea is that free trade and glabalization will improve our lives, it's worth paying attention to how lives are actually being affected. If the idea is that GDP is all, and let the chips fall where they may, then the approach of the current administration is their wet dream.

Unfortunately, there is a strong tendency toward that "natural" equilibrium I was talking about, in which we wind up with much more political and economic power in the hands of a small group of ever-wealthier have-mores. That's a social/political consequence that may be more important than the relative efficacy of one state of equilibrium versus another.

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

I am much more of an optimist. We can't isolate ourselves from the world, but life is only a zero sum game on the first approximation. Meaning that it may seem at first look that for everyone benefitting, someone else suffers. But it ain't necessarily so.

Lots of farm jobs were lost as farms were mechanized. The horse and mule are no longer needed on farms, so we lost all those jobs related to horses and mules at least for work animals. But the amount of food produced has gone up. The more goods produced, the average family is better off.

We don't have nearly the number of people working in steel mills, but we are producing somewhat more steel than ever. And importing steel on top of what we produce. Pretty obvious we are consuming more steel.

What is happening is that the rest of the world is catching up to us. That does not mean that we are going backwards, just that others are going forward faster than the US. Suppose we get solar energy costs down or nuclear power costs down. Then there is more power available everywhere. We are better off and those in India are also better off. That is not a win/lose situation. It is WIN/win. The big WIN is for the US, bucause we use more energy than other countries.

It is true that those workers that do manual labor will not be in demand, and that is a problem. But it is like those horses and mules. It does not mean that the standard of living has to go down. How it turns out, I don't know. But it could mean that Ed and Harold will be having someone to work in the yard, clean house, and cook. If the cost of goods goes down enough, a gardener might be able to live comfortably while only working 20 hours a week and people like Ed that are employed in jobs that require more education will be able to have all the things they have now, plus a part time gardener and a part time house keeper.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

I didn't say that I wasn't directly affected, I am. 44yrs old & until 3 weeks ago (currently unemployed) I've been employed for companies that supply the auto industry. Industrial maintenance & machine tool building in various capacities. I'm tired of it & trying to get away from the business.

Reply to
Stephen Young

Ok, but don't think I'm opposed to free trade. It's a horse we have to ride, like it or not.

But we don't have to ride it into a ditch. The point is that we should benefit from our economic policies. The idea that capital has to be catered to in order to remain "competitive" is not accurate. There are ways to keep our investors and businesses prosperous without giving them all the money. And letting people who have worked hard and spent their lives becoming expert in some field that suddenly goes offshore is a big problem. It's a problem for those individuals, it's a problem for our economy, and it's a problem for our society in many ways, not least of which is the sense of unfairness and cynicism it engenders.

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

It is when unearned money changes hands.

While I'm not aware that our production of steel has increased, I'll assume you're right-----but your example is more proof of what I say, assuming it's correct. Many of the steel mills are gone------priced out of the market. Has EPA had a hand in that? Probably, but unreasonable wages and salaries haven't helped. When you combine the stringent rules and regs along with subsidization of foreign goods by their governments, we can't compete. The market is seeking that equilibrium point, and it's not going to be fun or easy for the US.

Agreed, but the method by which they're doing that is to take the work that has been overpriced too long and do it cheaper. They can do that because there's lots of fat in the price of the widget in question. The moment any country has the ability to mess with the market, they are the ones that establish the value of the widget. For the most part, all of us seek a better price---make the dollar go just a little farther---so there's a few of them left after the necessities for pleasure use. As a result, we buy the import widget in lieu of the over-priced American version. People lose jobs because no one is buying their over priced widgets. Yes, I agree, there are quality issues----as there was with anything made in Japan----but that changed-----and fast. Made in Japan became the standard many of us sought.

Indeed it is, and it's a big problem. While I can't quote statistics, there's a huge number of people that have no skills, no formal training, no formal education. Couple that with the attitude that they are entitled to a "living wage" regardless of their qualifications and you have a problem that won't be addressed as you suggest. They won't do the work--------not until they're starving, if even then. We, through our ignorance (thanks to politicians) have made everyone think there's a free lunch. There isn't. Attitudes have to change. People must be responsible for themselves----and they must be taught from childhood that it is up to them to make their way in the world----that no one is going to bail them out if they live under a bridge.

But it is like those horses and mules.

I love your optimism, Dan. Hope you're right and I'm wrong. Somehow, I still see some "free lunches" in your ideas, and, for sure, more faith in people's willingness to work than I have, at least here in the US.

Hope we all live long enough to see how this thing is going to play out.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

The *truly* cynical among us feel that the present course we have charted for our country has been carefully scripted by the current administration. They got where they are by the infusion of *massive* amounts of campaign money from large corporations. Not only don't the neocons care about individual standard of living, they want it to actually decrease. Less money for the shmoes means more for them, and the contributions then have ever so much more so effect.

Is this a crazy scenario? Might be, but the test to see if it rings true is simple: as jobs fly overseas, and wages for the remaining ones start to slide, the tax revenues will start to slip. They cannot allow that to happen, so my personal guess will be there will be some kind of desparate effort to crank up the tax rate for those still gainfully employed.

The "alternative minimum tax" can do this job, as long as inflation sees to it that all citizens (yep, even gunner) fall under its scope.

I would honestly take any economist's theory with a *huge* grain of salt, if said theory involves our present government thinking about egalitarianism and fairness across economic class lines.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

The steel mills that have gone have been forced out by more efficient steel mills. It is not primarily by foreign competition. I keep referring to Nucor because I own some of their stock and get their annual reports. But you can search and find their web site and read it all for yourself. Nucor employs about 6000 people and makes about 20 million tons of steel a year. This is about 1/5 th of all the steel produced in the US. If all steel mills were as efficient, then there would be only about 30,000 people employed by steel mills. I think the steel industry used to employ ten times that many and produced less steel. A few years back Nucor said their competion was not foreign steel mills. But other efficient steel mills in the US. Nucor said the cost of shipping kept the foreign mills at a disadvantage. Nucor built the first steel mill that produced thin continuous castings that went straight into a rolling mill with any cooling and reheating.

And of course the foreign companies are seeing how much some things are over priced and choosing to make those items. Would you expect them to say " Boy, I don't see how the Americans can produce that for so little money. Lets make those things. We will lose our ass on those. "

Well it is going to play out one way or another. The US is doing a lot better than some of the European countries. There is no free lunch in my ideas. I think that there is going to be more of a difference between the wages of those with skills and those with no skills ( with or without formal training or education ). We are going to have to pay a living wage to those that have no skills, but those with skills are going to be getting a much higher wage.

As for those that want to isolate the US, phooey. Everyone ought to have an equal chance to earn a decent living. Isolation is just another Jim Crow idea. " they aren't like me, I am special.........I ought to be the only one with a decent job. Whatever "

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

Honestly I don't think that is true Dan. Isolation at the US borders used to be a result of transportation and telecommunication issues.

The infrastructure is now present to shrink the world, and the modern communication and data processing abilities speed the whole thing along.

One reason why shipping goods from china to the US works is because the companies have the computers and the data connections to schedule it all and communicate.

I tell folks that computers have really not changed our world that much, with *two* exceptions: 1) weather forcasting, and 2) shipment of goods.

Now I'm gonna go out and order one of those $100 cars from china....

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

My phooey is to those that think that one should buy American. Don't buy foreign tools, etc.

We used to have isolation which has changed mostly because of telecommunication, but also because container ships are more efficient. But my comment was toward those that want isolation. Those that think the US should not have to be competitive, but have a protected market. For every worker you help with tariffs, you harm someone that wants those things that are protected. Do we need to protect sugar producers? And as a result pay about 50 % more for sugar.

But I don't begrudge anyone on earth trying to make a decent living. I may not like the quality of some foreign tools, but I don't like the quality of some US made tools either. We do need to help those hurt by outsourcing find new occupations, but not get upset that a programmer in India is willing to work for less money than a programmer here. The Indian is just as much a human as the American.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

Wow! That sucks unless you left voluntarily.

I offer the same advice I gave Jim------start your own business. It worked for me----twice.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

I had a book on the evolution of Nucor steel. That is how companies should be run. They were not run by an over bloated upper management. I remember something about buying out Diamond Reo and using it as a holding company.

The unions killed the old steel company's. They made it not worth putting in new equipment because they could not reduce the workforce, even by not replacing retiring workers. This caused them to lose any competitive edge they may have had. They were competing against foreign steel that was being made in modern production facilities.

john

Reply to
John

Wasn't voluntary & I am working at establishing something of my own.

Reply to
Stephen Young

Way cool, Stephen.

Luck!!

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos
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Reply to
Stephen Young

Keep a good attitude and work ethic, and be honest with your customers. The rest is easy.

By the way, it took me two months to start work trickling into my shop when I opened the doors. Once it took hold, I never looked back. I was out of work only three times in 16 years, the longest period idle was less than one day. Provide the needs of your customer, what ever they may be, and be better than everyone else around you and they won't leave you alone. I was 28 years old, with exactly ten years of experience, to the day, when I was fired from my last job----thanks to my belligerent attitude (which I still have! ). August 19th, 1967, the day I considered my shop in business. I was two weeks away from quitting.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

This is how I look at it.

So many shortcomings in the business world can be summed up rather easily to me - "Do your job". This applies to everyone at all levels. I just see too many instances of people trying to do as little as possible & still get paid. Happens at all levels, top to bottom.

Reply to
Stephen Young

I've bitched and moaned about that for so long I can't remember when I didn't. Seems like way too many expect what I like to call "more for less". More holidays off with pay, shorter work week, smaller demand when on the job, more paid vacation, better health coverage, and all with a nice raise. Do these dumb bastards believe in the Easter Bunny, too?

Stephen, I have a very different attitude about earning money than most folks have. It's likely due to my father's unbelievable honesty----which I didn't recognize as a kid, but reflect on it now that he's long gone------and the fact that I worked for myself for all but the first ten years of my life after leaving school. It really changes the way you see things when the buck stops at your doorstep, you are responsible for getting it done, on time, right, delivered, and made all the necessary gestures for the PR portion of the job. It gives you a real appreciation for the value, or lack thereof, of the dollar. You come to realize that there's no free lunch.

I'm not real good with people, tend to be rather curt, speak my mind, sometimes when it might be better if I didn't, but I garnered a huge following in both of the businesses I founded, thanks to my work ethics honesty and reliability. I often said the many of my (precious metal refining) customers didn't much like me as a person, but they all liked what I did for them. I was fair, on time, and stepped up to help in a crisis. Looking back, I'd have been shocked had I not succeeded in both ventures. Anyone that follows that concept and involves themselves in a business that is needed can't fail.

Harold.

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

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