Pearl Harbor

This is in the running for 'understatement of the year.'

Jim

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Im still waiting for suggestions. Your commentary is noted and disregarded.

Gunner

No 220-pound thug can threaten the well-being or dignity of a 110-pound woman who has two pounds of iron to even things out. Is that evil? Is that wrong? People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're begging for the rule of brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals among men were always automatically "right". Guns end that, and social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make it work. - L. Neil Smith

Cites? We have the ACLU watching over the rest of them (their ignoring the 2nd is notable btw)

Jim, once again, you failed to answer the question or read/think particularly deeply. The comment was made, that we should/could have prevented 9/11 etc. The only way we could, particularly in the face of the cutting of funding for HUMINT (human intelligence sources) would be to tighten the screws and set up a police state. The Lefties and the ignorant weep and wail about the failure, never realizing the alternative IS a police state.

When they DO get part of their wish, the Patriot Act etc...suddenly they start wailing about the result.

Sorry guys...this is an either/or situation.

There is NO way to prevent terrorism, or acts of terrorism, without stepping on peoples toes, or their Rights. Period. Full stop, end program.

I of all people, a libertarian, and activist, am fully aware of the issues. I don't live in the warm comfortable Cave of Apathy.

Hence my request of alternative suggestions. So far..all I see are knee jerk responses with no value to the situation at hand.

Again I ask..how would YOU handle the situation. What means would you use to ferret out whom is a Tango, whom is funding them, where the money comes from, whom belongs to a sleeper cell, whom funnels money to unfriendly groups whose goals are death and destruction to both the US and our allies? Remember..you cannot take any steps that will restrict or harm anothers rights, no matter if they are a Citizen or not.

Im waiting

Gunner

No 220-pound thug can threaten the well-being or dignity of a 110-pound woman who has two pounds of iron to even things out. Is that evil? Is that wrong? People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're begging for the rule of brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals among men were always automatically "right". Guns end that, and social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make it work. - L. Neil Smith

No shit..and who was in charge of this during the 8 yrs prior to 9/11? Whom refused to fund HUMINT sources both foreign and domestic?

It sure wasn't Dubya.

I strongly suggest you take a look at the Administrations of those Universities..and ask them what their take on the matter was. Those bastions of Liberal thinking were refusing to follow those steps as being harmful to the rights of those students. Want the cites

Absolutely correct. I notice that most of them are still run by Clinton appointees. However..since Homeland Security was formed to address this issue..the Left is Still screaming.

Of course..politicians are politicians.

Some are, some arnt. 9/11 changed our outlook and the playing field.

And your suggestions are?

Budda Bing! Good call. Sorta like 'what the meaning of "is" is, huh? The alternative is cold harsh reality..and then folks really start to wail. See my previous post.

No shit, ya think? So how would YOU handle it?

Gunner

No 220-pound thug can threaten the well-being or dignity of a 110-pound woman who has two pounds of iron to even things out. Is that evil? Is that wrong? People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're begging for the rule of brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals among men were always automatically "right". Guns end that, and social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make it work. - L. Neil Smith

No. That was your question and it's the wrong question. My *statement* is the EXACT same statement that you made in another thread about two weeks ago, namely that I get very unhappy when the constitiution gets a screwing.

And I will continue to stand by that statement.

Jim

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A CITE? I don't need a cite for my opinion. This is what you look like, to me.

This is what ashcroft would have you believe. I had hoped you were wiser than that. If you are willing to destroy the constitition to save it, then I guess this part of the discussion comes to a close.

Jim

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PERSONNEL KILLED

Navy 2001 Marine Corps 109 Army 231 Civilian 54

PERSONNEL WOUNDED

Navy 710 Marine Corps 69 Army 364 Civilian 35

SHIPS

Sunk or beached 12 Damaged 9

AIRCRAFT

Destroyed 164 Damaged 159

Pearl Harbor, on the Island of O'ahu, Hawaii, (then a territory of the United States) was attacked by the Japanese Imperial Navy, at approximately 8:00 A.M., Sunday morning, December 7, 1941. The surprise attack had been conceived by Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. The strking force of 353 Japanese aircraft was led by Commander Mitsuo Fuchida. There had been no formal declaration of war.

Approximately 100 ships of the U.S. Navy were present that morning, consisting of battleships, destroyers, cruisers and various support ships.

USS Arizona (BB39) Battleship USS West Virginia (BB48) Battleship USS California (BB44)Battleship USS Oklahoma (BB37) Battleship USS Nevada (BB36) Battleship USS Pennsylvania (BB38) Battleship (in dry dock #1) USS Tennessee (BB43) Battleship USS Maryland (BB46) Battleship USS Vestal (AR4) Repair ship USS Neosho (AO23) Oiler USS Detroit (CL8) Light cruiser USS Raleigh (CL7) Light cruiser USS Utah (AG16) Target Ship USS Tangier (AV8) Seaplane Tender

Two destroyers, the USS Cassin (DD372) and the USS Downes (DD375) were in dry dock #1 (with the USS Pennsylvania) and the destroyer USS Shaw (DD373) was in floating dry dock #2, approximately two hundred yards to the west. The USS Ogala (CM-4) was moored next to the USS Helena (CL50) near the "1010" dock, Naval Ship yard. Two heavy cruisers, the USS New Orleans (CA32) and the San Francisco (CA38) were in the Navy Yard Repair Basin

Over half the U.S. Pacific fleet was out to sea, including the carriers.

Simultaneously, nearby Hickam Field was also the victim of the surprise attack by the Japanese.

18 Army Aircorps aircraft including bombers and fighters and attack bombers were destroyed or damaged on the ground. A few U.S. fighters struggled into the air against the invaders and gave a good account of themselves.

Time line Pearl Harbor

59 Years Ago December 7, 1996 Anniversary Remembrance

0342 Minesweeper CONDOR sights periscope off Honolulu Harbor ...notifies patrol destroyer WARD to investigate. 0458 Minesweeper CROSSBILL and CONDOR enter Pearl Harbor... defective submarine net remains open.

0600 - 200 miles south of Oahu carrier ENTERPRISE launches 18 aircraft to scout ahead...then to land at Ford Island, Pearl Harbor...ETA 0800. 0610 - 220 miles north of Oahu Admiral Nagumo orders launching of 1st wave of 183 aircraft off three carriers...2 are lost during takeoff. 0630 Destroyer WARD again notified of submarine sighting this time by supply ship ANTARES off Pearl Harbor entrance... Navy patrol plane (PBY) dispatched to the scene. 0645 WARD opens fire on target hitting conning tower...as she closes in drops depth charges..air attack by PBY follows. 0653 WARD'S commander Captain Outerbridge sends message to Commandant 14th Naval District: "We have attacked, fired upon and dropped depth charges upon submarine operating in defensive sea area". 0700 Commander Fuchida flying towards Oahu directs his pilots to home in on local radio station. 0702 Private's Lockhard and Elliott of Opana Radar Station pick up what appears to be a flight of unidentified aircraft bearing in 132 miles north of Oahu... discussion follows. 0706 Private Elliott phones switchboard operator Joseph McDonald at Information Center, Ft. Shafter, telling of a large formation of aircraft approaching the Island. 0715 Capt. Outerbridge's attack message, delayed in decoding is delivered to duty officer, 14th Naval District, and to Admiral Kimmel's duty officer... Japanese launch 2nd wave of 168 assault aircraft...

0720 Joseph McDonald finding Lt. Tyler in Information Center, calls Opana and patches Lt. Tyler thru to Private Lockard who describes the large flight picked up on radar and is told, "Well don't worry about it." ( see Pvt.Joseph McDonald's account under the Survivor Rememberances "An Army Private is one of the 1st to know of the coming attack)"

0733 Important message from Gen Marshall from Washington to Short received via RCA in Honolulu...cablegram has no indication of priority... messenger Tadao Fuchikami proceeds on normal route... 0735 Reconnaissance plane from cruiser CHIKUMA reports main fleet in Pearl Harbor... 0739 Opana Station loses aircraft on radar 20 miles off coast of Oahu due to "dead zone" caused by surrounding hills... 0740 1st wave sights North Shore of Oahu...deployment for attack begins... 0749 Commander Fuchida orders attack...all pilots to begin assault on military bases on Oahu... 0753 Fuchida radios code to entire Japanese Navy "TORA TORA TORA" indicating success...maximum strategic surprise... Pearl Harbor caught unaware... 0755 Island wide attack begins...Japanese dive bombers to strike airfields Kaneohe, Ford Island, Hickam, Bellows, Wheeler, Ewa... Aerial torpedo planes begin their run on ships in Pearl Harbor...

** ATTACK ERUPTS AT PEARL HARBOR**

Along Battleship Row, battlewagons feel the sting of the newly perfected torpedoes specifically designed for the shallow waters of Pearl Harbor At 1010 dock violent explosions rock light cruiser HELENA on her starboard side crippling both her and minelayer OGLALA moored beside her.. On the other side of Battleship row, Ford Island, target ship UTAH also feels the sting of the torpedoes...and like the battleship OKLAHOMA begins to capsize...

Light cruiser RALEIGH moored ahead of the UTAH takes measures to prevent capsizing... Commander Logan Ramsey of Ford Island Command Center sends out message for all radiomen on duty to send out in plain English "AIR RAID PEARL HARBOR THIS IS NO DRILL"...

2nd dispatch orders all patrol planes to seek out enemy... Simultaneously the call for General Quarters echos throughout Pearl Harbor... each ship and their personnel in turn swing into action against the attacking Japanese... one quarter of all guns respond to the enemy... 0800 B-17's from the mainland reach Oahu after 14 hour flight...Aircraft from carrier ENTERPRISE arrive Ford Island...both caught between enemy and friendly fire... 0802 Machine guns on battleship NEVADA open fire on torpedo planes approaching her port beam...two planes hit... however one missile tears huge hole in ship's port bow... 0805 Repair ship VESTAL moored outboard of battleship ARIZONA opens fire... Admiral Kimmel arrives CINCPAC headquarters... Battleship CALIFORNIA receives second torpedo "portside at frame 110"... prompt action directed by Ensign Edgar M. Fain prevents ship from capsizing... High level bombers begin their run "on both bows" of battleship row... 0808 KGMB radio interrupts music calling for: "All Army, Navy, and Marine personnel to report to duty"... High level bombers unleash armour piercing, delayed action bombs from altitude of 10,000 feet scoring hits on battleships... 0810 Forward magazines on battleship ARIZONA suddenly ignite resulting in a tremendous explosion and huge fireball sinking the battleship within nine minutes... concussion of explosion blows men off repair ship VESTAL... 0812 General Short advises entire Pacific Fleet and Washington, "Hostilities with Japan commenced with air raid on Pearl Harbor" 0815 KGMB interrupts music with 2nd call ordering all military personnel to report for duty... 0817 USS HELM first of several destroyers to clear Pearl Harbor spots a midget submarine struggling to enter harbor... shots fired misses target...sub frees itself from reef and submerges... 0825 Using a Browning Automatic Rifle Lt. Stephen Saltzman and Sgt. Lowell Klatt shot down enemy plane making strafing run on Schofield Barracks... 0826 Honolulu Fire Department responds to call for assistance from Hickam Field...3 firemen killed...6 wounded... 0830 3rd call out for military via local radio stations... 0835 Tanker NEOSHO half loaded with high octane aviation fuel moves clear of Battleship Row and oil tanks on Ford Island... Damage reported in city...Police warn civilians to leave streets and return to their homes... 0839 Seaplane tender CURTISS sights midget sub in harbor and commences to fire..Destroyer MONAGHAN heads for intruder at ramming speed... 0840 Submarine surfaces after sustaining damage...MONAGHAN hits sub and drops depth charges as she passes... 1st explanation over local radio stations. "A sporadic air attack...rising sun sighted on wing tips"... 0850 Lt. Commander Shimazaki orders deployment of 2nd wave over military bases on Oahu... 0854 Attack run begins...54 high-level bombers hit Naval air stations, 78 dive bombers hit ships in Pearl, 36 fighters circle over harbor to maintain air control... 0900 Crew of the Dutch liner JAGERSFONTEIN opens up with her guns, the first Allies to join the fight... Radios throughout the island crack out urgent messages "Get off roads and stay off.. Don't block traffic...Stay at home...This is the real McCoy"... 0930 Tremendous explosions rocks destroyer SHAW sending debris everywhere... bomb falls near Governor's home... 1000 First wave arrives back on carriers, 190 miles north of Oahu... 1005 Governor Poindexter calls local papers announcing state of emergency for entire territory of Hawaii 1030 Mayor's Major Disaster Council meets at city hall...Reports from local hospitals pour in listing civilian casualties... 1100 Commander Fuchida circles over Pearl Harbor...assesses damage then returns to carrier task force...All schools on Oahu ordered to close... 1115 State of emergency announced over radio by Governor Poindexter... 1142 As per orders by Army local stations go off the air...General short confers with Governor regarding martial law... 1146 First report of many false sightings of enemy troops landing on Oahu... 1210 American planes fly north in search for enemy with negative results... 1230 Honolulu police raid Japanese embassy...find them burning documents...Blackout to begin at night ordered by Army... 1240 Governor confers with President Roosevelt regarding martial law...both agree it necessary that the military take over the civilian government... 1300 Commander Fuchida lands on board carrier AKAGI...discussion follows with Admiral Nagumo and staff concerning feasibility of launching 3rd wave... 1330 Signal flags on carrier AKAGI orders Japanese task force to withdraw... Territorial director of civil defense orders blackout every night until further notice... 1458 Tadao Fuchikami delivers message from Washington... message decoded and given to General Short regarding ultimatum from Japan to be given at 1300 Washington time... "Just what significance the hour set may have we do not know, but be on the alert accordingly"... 1625 Governor signs Proclamation...martial law put into effect...

Time line courtesy of Tri-City Chapter 31, Pearl Harbor Survivors Association

For those still on the bottom, and those who made it to Punch Bowl and home.

Martin

So then..you will not answer the question, but make a statement only, then continue to whine like a little child?

Ok, I can work with this.

Gunner

No 220-pound thug can threaten the well-being or dignity of a 110-pound woman who has two pounds of iron to even things out. Is that evil? Is that wrong? People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're begging for the rule of brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals among men were always automatically "right". Guns end that, and social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make it work. - L. Neil Smith

Well, here are some modest suggestions.

Really seriously crack down on weapons possession by anyone in the US except authorized federal agents. A weapon will be defined as anything any federal agent deems to be a weapon, or looks like a weapon. Violators will be summarily executed.

No travel more than a quarter mile from your registered residence will be allowed without a permit. *Everyone* must be required to show their identity papers and travel permits at Homeland Security checkpoints located throughout our cities, and at security barriers erected anywhere else. Failure to show proper documentation to HS troopers is grounds for summary execution.

Strip and lock all passengers in their seats on commercial aircraft, trains, and buses. (Private vehicles must be banned completely.)

Detain and strip search anyone coming within a quarter mile of a federal building, school (its for the children), or other possible terrorist target on foot.

Private homes can be searched at any time for any reason at the government's discretion.

Telephone and data communications can be monitored at any time for any reason, and the parties to the communications do not have to be notified that they're being monitored.

If anyone looks Arabic, shoot missiles at him, his wife, his children, his grandchildren, and anyone else who happens to be passing on the street. Dynamite his home.

Etc.

What? You don't like those ideas? Then you're part of the problem, and can be summarily executed for voicing such subversive thoughts.

Gary

Ok, we have one vote for a police state.

Next suggestion?

Gunner

"Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."

-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"

Your question came after my statement IIRC, so the

*real* question remains in your court, how will YOU preserve and protect the US constitution?

What other amendments become optional under Ashcroft's program?

What rights are YOU willing to give up?

Let's start with, say, search and siezure. Now the cops need no warrant issued under probable cause, to search gunner's homes. How's that feel?

Next we're going to have you detained and incarcerated for no reason at all. No arrest warrant need be issued, no crime committed.

Jim

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I rest easy in this regard knowing you are walking the face of teh planet.

:)

Jim

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I thought that made *two*. After all, we can't be quibbling about stepping on a few rights now, eh? We're gonna upset somebody no matter what happens.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

Gary what is the matter with you? The government has been looking for just such a plan and you said it out loud. We are all doomed now!

Pete.

The reason that Gunner gave his vote for your plan is that in the typical police states it is the "Gunners" of the society that are the police and they are the only ones that have the guns. Thus, Gunner would be quite happy with the situation that you describe. He would have job security and lots of guns.

Pete.

Next suggestion - a new sarcasm detector for Gunner - his is broken.

Gary was obviously being sarcastic. Yet you take him literally, and accuse him of the very thing he is critizing. Hence, detector must be busted. (Or turned off when it is convenient for you.)

John Kasunich

"and make sure it doesn't happen again"? You mean _try_ to make sure it doesn't happen again. Even in a police state it is impossible to be perfectly safe. In a free country it is even harder. But that is one of the risks of life - not an excuse to turn this nation into a police state.

I'm all in favor of spending on HUMINT. But I'd rather endure another

9/11 than give government the unbridled power you want it to have. I just don't get it - you are a libertarian, but you have no problem with goverment power in the hands of the Right.

If the existing laws are not being enforced, the answer is to enforce them, not to add new laws. That's practically a quote direct from the NRA/RKBA people. Why doesn't it apply to security? Why do we need the Patriot act when existing laws aren't being used, or are being used selectively at the whim of those in power? That's the exact reason why the RKBA people oppose new gun control laws - and they are right. More laws and more government power is not the answer.

There is a simple test for any law: would I want this law applied to me? Do you want the government to search your home/shop without a warrant while you are at work? Don't say "I have nothing to hide". What if that government decides you shouldn't own guns - then you certainly would have something to hide.

Suppose Lennie called up the Bureau of HS and said "Psst, there's a guy named Gunner up in Bakersfield with a house full of guns and a shop where he's making bombs for terrorists." Only the last three words are a lie. Do you want the BoHS or ATF searching your house because of a tip from the likes of Lennie? Do you want to be in the position of having do _prove_ you aren't making bombs for terrorists?

Exactly - politicians are politicians. Last time I looked, Dubya was a politician too.

Gunner, you would be screaming bloody murder if a Dem/Liberal administration was passing laws like the Patriot act. But it's OK if the Right does it? Do you want that Act to still be in effect when the pendulum swings back to the left? (Don't tell me it won't swing. It always swings both ways, only the time varies - it might be the next election, it might be in 2050, but it _will_ happen.)

You claim to be a libertarian, but your mistrust of government power seems to end abruptly as soon as you cross the aisle from Left to Right. Believe it or not, the Left does _not_ have a monopoly on abusing power. It's human nature - power corrupts. The Patriot act gives unsupervised power to government, and sooner or later, it _will_ be abused.

John Kasunich

Hmm. Good point, I had missed that.

LOL. True story: wife is in law school, and they're doing search and seizure law. Of course one student stands up and parrots that exact line 'I have nothing to hide' so the instructor says, "ok, come on down here in front and dump your purse out on the table, right now."

Pause.

"No."

"Why not, you have _nothing_ to hide, right?"

"This stuff is personal."

Big laugh from entire class, red face on the victim.

Or, whenever the BOR clock hand departs "two."

Jim

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I recently made an error when reporting statistics that I would like to clear up.

I stated that Iraq had used WMDs on hundreds of thousands of its own people. I referred specifically to the Kurds. As of an Associated Press story in this morning's paper by Niko Price, my figures were in error. I had said hundreds of thousands, when it was ONLY 180,000 and therefore did not reach the 200,000 figure that would have made it plural. The poster who corrected me said that the figure was about 5,000 in reality. I guess the real figure is somewhere in between, but find the 5,000 number to be unbelievable. I apologize to all statisticians, netnannies, and anal retentive people here who require everything to be stated in explicit terms, which I did not do. But this is not computer programming, and one minor mistake does not negate the whole thing.

As for WMDs, and all those wailing that no WMDs have been found, what is a WMD? In the Cambodian purge, tens of thousands of people were killed with sticks driven into the back of their heads. Would a stick not then qualify as a WMD to a reasonable man? Many of the hundreds of thousands of people killed in Iraq were probably shot. Wouldn't that qualify a gun as a WMD?

This story today about Iraq says that human rights officials estimate up tp to 500,000 people were murdered in Iraq, and Iraqi political officials estimate the number could go as high as one million. Since there are numerous mass graves in Iraq, and no need to excavate them all and count the bodies, the exact number will never be known. All the sites of all the mass graves will never be known.

So, for the purists in this debate, and for just us regular humans, what constitutes a WMD? Is it the ability to kill 100,000 people at once, or kill 100,000 people over a course of time? The Hussein regime certainly did wreak havoc and mass destruction. The facts and evidence are there. All that is left is this endless prattle by purists as to just how it was done.

Saddam Hussein WAS a WMD himself. And no, he has not been found. So, on that point, I would agree that particular WMD has not surfaced. As for the others, we have ample evidence that mass destruction of humans was carried out. Do we really need to debate whether it qualifies as mass destruction merely because it wasn't done by some particular means? Dead is dead.

Until 9/11, no one considered an airliner as a WMD.

Steve