SNAKE OIL ?

This thing?

"I hae me doots" as the Scotsman said.

Hmm. From their web site: (how does it work) ============================================================================== The electronic unit works by sending out a signal which changes the electrical and physical properties of scale forming calcium molecules.

This action stops any further build-up of scale by preventing molecules from adhering to themselves or any other surface. ===============================================================================

I dunno about that. I'm mot sure what electronic or other physical properites can be changed about the ions in solution. Sounds bogus.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

"Ian Sutherland" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com...

An interesting article here:

"Perhaps the most remarkable observation is that devices can affect descaling downstream of the point of installation; a softening and loosening of existing scale several weeks after installation is commonly reported. To understand the mechanism, some knowledge of mineral scale precipitation is necessary. We know that in order to form a scale deposit three conditions must be met: - The solution must be supersaturated.

- Nucleation sites must be available at the pipe surface.

- Contact / residence time must be adequate. To prevent scale it is necessary to remove at least one of these pre-conditions. Clearly contact time is not an alterable factor. To be effective any device must therefore affect either the supersaturation value or the nucleation process. The direct effect of electronic devices is on the nucleation process and in particular to enhance initial nucleation through the creation of new nucleation sites within the bulk fluid flow. Crystal growth then occurs at these points of nucleation and not at the pipewall. Suspended solids increase with a corresponding drop in the level of supersaturation, and these effects have been observed in the field. The localised pH increase near the pipewall caused by hydroxyl radicals formed by electromechanical interactions is one mechanism that drives the changed nucleation characteristics. A Lorenz force (F) is experienced by charged particles that flow through a field: F = qE + q (V x B) where q is the charge on the particle, E is the electric field vector, V is the particle velocity, and B the magnetic field vector. Electronic devices operate at very small residual magnetic fields whereas magnets need high field strength (>1000gauss) for optimum performance. The flow dependency of magnetic devices is explained by the velocity parameter, V, and E=0. The flow non-dependency of electronic devices is explained by the fact that the magnetic component approaches zero, but the electric component is essentially constant. This suggests that the key performance parameter is the total value of the 'Lorenz' force acting on the charged particles, rather than the individual magnetic and electric field vectors. Electronic devices are not flow-rate dependent and can be built to fit pipe diameter up to at least 60". The units are lightweight, easy to install, can be retrofitted, and produce no significant magnetic field. They are usually effective on calcium carbonate, are claimed to reduce iron fouling, and appear to prevent fouling in non-water substances."

Umm, OK but it still seems to be a leap of faith that a field that causes the ions to see a lorentz force will affect (increase) nucleation. There is no mention of how that happens in there at all.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

sounds like snake oil to me. so, um... what is it supposed to be

*doing* with the scale that it "removes"? Flushing it on down the pipe for redeposition a little later, sounds like.

Snake Oil of the first water. The biggest clue for me is the method of wrapping the pipe and that it works on any type pipe. The method of wrapping is mystical and thus suspect. The working on any type of pipe is silly as the different types of pipe do different things with the water and thus the device would need to know what type of pipe it is attached to.

-- Bob May Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less. Works every time it is tried!

Supposedly there isn't any to flush. It doesn't form in the first place.

Lane

Too bad your daughter bought the thing BEFORE you started asking questions. As far as I know, nothing has any chance of working without breaking into the pipe. For either an iron or copper pipe, very little (alternating) magnetic field is going to penetrate the pipe. For Iron pipes, even the static field is going to be largely contained in the iron.

There are ways to demineralize water, and a water softener will do the job. There are things that are sold by air conditioning/heating supply outfits that will demineralize make-up water, humidifier supply lines, ice makers, etc. But, they are basically a one-time ion exchange bed, in other words a disposable water softener.

$500! Wow, the crooks are getting bolder all the time!

Your subject line surely sums it up best!

Well, you could install it and see if it works (but don't hold your breath). Better, sell it on eBay for $450 before the word gets out it is a scam.

Jon

Some of the claims they make (or rather the endorsements) seem to claim that the water is chemically softened, e.g. 'use less shampoo', 'skin feels softer' indicate blind faith in the product. It CANNOT remove the calcium ions that mark water hard even IF it does prevent limescale from depositing in the pipes. Martin

knows anything

They only work if you use Monster cable to wire it. And the water mineral content is measured in "squinkies". Only the truly discerning elite can tell the difference. Similar companies make magnetic bactericidal attachments for diesel fuel lines.

Hopefully, it will be worth it to her as an educational experience.

Kevin Gallimore

Got this reference from an electronics newsgroup- not good news, I'm afraid:

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

On 26 May 2004 06:48:35 -0700, zsutherland snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Ian Sutherland) vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Whether it works or not, at $500 (US?) there woul d have to be a LOT of "intellectual property" in there, from your description of the circuitry.

My belief? Do not install it. Send it back if you can. Find out a lot more, then maybe try again.

Huh?

*******************************************************

Sometimes in a workplace you find snot on the wall of the toilet cubicles. You feel "What sort of twisted child would do this?"....the internet seems full of them. It's very sad

The first question is whether your daughter needs anything to prevent scale buildup. The water would have to be pretty bad to require it. But a simple test would be boiling some water in the microwave in a glass cup. You don't have to boil the water away. Just increase the temp so the calcium carbonate precipitates out. If she does have a problem, then since you already have the device attach it to the water line going to the hot water tank. Then wait a day or so so that all the old water in the hot water tank has been flushed. And repeat the microwave test.

Hey I am a skeptic too, but why not do a test and see what the results are. Anything less will not convince your daughter one way or the other.

Dan

Look at it this way.......

.....if it doesn't work on the household plumbing, you could always wrap it around your car's fuel line to increase fuel mileage.

If a cow magnet tie-wrapped to the line does as much as is claimed, imagine what several feet of electro-magnet will do!!!

LOL!!!!

Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E. Race Car Chassis Analysis & Setup Services

supersaturation

That sounds interesting and I shall read it again in peace. What I can report is that these devices give mixed results. This is frequently due to them not being installed in the best way. When they work they REALLY work and can even remove scale downstream of themselves. They seem to work on some types of scale better than others. Sorry that I can't report that they are useless. Looks like you have got a job to do.

John

Ah but Dan, anyone who has shelled out the money to purchase the widget will not be predisposed to perform a *real* test like that, because they already know it works just fine, thanks very much....

How is your latest grankid in progress doing?

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

So now we have water flowing in the nice clean pipe. Of course since transmutation isn't claimed (even were it possible this easily), we now have Ca++ and CO3-- ions nicely in solution. Now this water flows clear of the magnetic field and these ions stay in solution in spite of the solubility product for CaCO3. If you can believe that, then I assume you also believe in homeopathy i.e. "The water remembers." In all my Physics and Chem courses, I never encountered any mechanism that could explain long term memory in water.

I vote for the "Snake Oil" hypothesis.

Ted

As I read it, the CaCo3 coagulates in the water and not on the pipe walls. So there is some being flushed out all the time. I still think it is snake oil, but enough of a question that I am willing to have someone run a test. Just not me.

Dan

Not snake oil, a clay vessel of smelly waste (cos).

The $500 would buy more than a lifetime supply of powdered water, perfectly suited for drinking, bathing, cooking, irrigation, rain and numerous recreational lakes.

WB ...............