Ultimate Workshop?

"Backlash" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@portbridge.com:

Requisits: Bathroom, fridge, heat, insulation, air conditioning, stereo system, more electrical than you would ever think you would need, and more air connections than you would ever think you would need. A light- grey epoxy coated floor, WHITE walls/ceiling. and more lights than you would ever believe. In our 32x24 shop, we had 144 linear feet of 2 bulb flourescent lighting. It will make a big difference in how you feel at the end of the day. One thing we did in our shop that we NEVER regretted, is overhead recepticals and air lines. Hose/cord reels are an ace in the hole when working out in the middle of the shop, and definately more safe than hoses and cords running all along the floor. Item 2: Outside compressor. Make a small outbuilding/leanto/shelter for it located outside the shop. Acres of pegboard, and plenty of shelving. A bench or two against a wall for breaks.

I am currently looking at building a new workshop in the next few months to house my stuff and some of the stuff inherited from my father. The current shop is a bolt together concrete garage which is un-insulated and only kept dry by the 24/7/365 use of a dehumidifier. I can't mend the original without taking it down and rebuilding it completely, so I'll get the new shop and the wife will get the rebuilt old shop.

My absolute requirements so far:-

1) Telephone and network access to the house, I currently run three servers in the garage and they will need to be catered for in the new shop.

2) Floor, walls and roof waterproofed with damp-proof membranes. I will keep the dehumidifier, but I don't want to collect a gallon and a half of water a day from it when the weather is wet!

3) Walls and roof insulated with 2"-3" foil fronted polyurethane foam boards. Floor insulated with 4" expanded polystyrene below the slab. It would be nice if the heat from the computers were enough to keep the shop above freezing in the UK winter.

3) Option of heating/air conditioning based on the first year's experience.

4) Carpet tiles on the floor. Both to make it more comfortable and _importantly_ to prevent things getting damaged when they're dropped.

5) Air compressor in a separate brick enclosure to cut down the problem of me jumping out of my skin when it starts.

I will almost certainly use another bolt together concrete structure, but I hope I can build it better than whoever put up the leaky garage 44 years ago.

I am severely limited by the size of my plot and cannot get bigger than 8' 6"' by 17' 6' internal dimensions. What I have been toying with is the idea of excavating a basement under the workshop. I reckon that a 6' by 7' by 14' basement would involve removing a bit more than 30 cubic yards of soil with the addition of formwork, reinforcing and concrete. The cost might only go up by 75% of the original price for another 60% of usable space out of the plot. has anyone done this sort of thing?

A great book is "Passive Solar Energy", second edition, by Bruce Anderson & Malcolm Wells. It's easy to read but still has enough information to correctly size a passive system. Can't beat it.

JTMcC.

RJ, I am currently building a home using the ARXX system.

It is going together well and we are very happy with it so far. If the website does not answer your questions, I might be able to help out. To answer your question about string trimmers, lawn mowers, etc. - a parge coat of thinset concrete is installed on the gap between the ground and the siding. Regards, Jim

Are they really that efficient? I was under the impression that since a heat pump uses the same systems as a air conditioner, it would cost the same to run.

--

My garage and shop was built with Quad-Lock. This consists of styrofoam "Lego" blocks placed in two rows 5.5" apart with rebar set in the plastic separators. Some temporary re-enforcement is added and the space between the rows filled with concrete. After the concrete has set up, the temporary re-enforcement is removed. The outside is stuccoed and the inside gyproc'd. Looks nice is _very_ sturdy and, with the R-40 insulation in the cathedral ceiling, is more than adequately heated in the Canadian winter with one 32,000BTU/hr radiant heater in each of the two areas. On 40+Celcius summer days, I open the doors early in the morning and close them when the temp outside equals temp inside (no other a/c). Late in the afternoon the temperature is often more than

10C cooler than outside.

More detail by e-mail if you wish. Note what to remove from addy.

Ted

I am in the process of building a new home shop and read all of this with enthusiasm. I opted for forced air heating in the shop as it is quick to heat up and turn off while the radiant heat is a slow up and down process. I will not be working in the shop everyday so intend to leave the heat off the bulk of the time. I am installing a demand water heater for the same reason. It will only need energy when I want hot water. The rest of the time it will be dormant. My entire shop has been made fork lift accessable so I don't need other types of lifts though I have installed a trap door to give access to the 6" x

14" header that is centered on one bay. An important thing to remember in laying out your machines is to put low things like work benches and horizontal bandsaws, and small lathes in the center of the shop. Put the tall stuff around the outside and the shop will look bigger and be more airy to work in. My work area has been designated an ancillary unit (read mother-in-law unit)on the plans and approved drawings. The city wouldn't let me build a big workshop. Because this is actually be constructed as a dwelling I have more then 10% of the floor area in windows (building code) and I have to put the 110V receptacles down near the baseboards. 220V single and three phase will be run later in a waist high band of conduit. That goes in after final inspection. I did put a pull down ladder/stairway into the loft and decked a four wide band near high gable with 1" plywood for industrial steel shelving for storage. Leigh@MarMachine

Excuse me for inserting my $.02USD here..but given the small size of your proposed shop..why not expand onto the original structure? Doing so will not only give you more room, but cost less, as you already have one or more walls to work with.

On grid paper, lay out the exisiting garage on your property. Look at the property lines, etc etc..then add shop space around one or more sides of the exisiting structure until you are within proper distance of your propery line(s). Doors as needed may be put in the wall(s) of the exisiting structure, etc etc. Done with a bit of foresight and planning, it will give you far more room, various spaces to perform clean or dirty work, storage etc etc and you may use proper ventilation from the new section to help keep the old section dry.

At most, you only need to construct no more than 3 external walls and perhaps only two. Basements are very nice..but they do flood, tend to be humid, and take up valuable floor space for access to the stairs, unless you live on the side of a hill. Its very hard to move machinery or long stock down said stairs, and it winds up being used mostly for storage if you have other shop space. You already have storage in the old garage. Shrug. The large Tupperware type tubs with snap on lids work pretty well in humid areas for keeping things moderately dry when racked on proper shelves.

Just an old rednecks suggestion, worth what you paid for it.

Gunner "As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will, through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs, Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota). The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability. Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones, of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines." Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

corner?

That is a boiler that the heating place figured out I should have to the square footage of the house. It is made by Pennco Inc. of Clarendon, Pa. It's a cast iron boiler about 18" X 24" X 30" high and supplies heat to about 3,000 linear feet of Pex tubing. To answer your previous question on how much gas it will use depends on how well your shop is insulated and how tight it is built. So I really can't say there. Hope this has helped.

Regards, Bernd

Instead, I

The big shop is yet to come. I need to build a large shop to house that tractor, plus my dune buggy. Included will be a larger metal shop and woodworking shop. That small shop in the basememnt will be used for my model railroading activities. Have to finish the house first before the new shop can be built. If I don't the wife will make me a eunuch. She complains I spent to much time in the shop now.

Bernd

It'll even take longer without the radiant heat.

Just a heads up to those who have not been privileged to see Leigh's Taj Mahall....its gonna be beeuuttyful.

Gunner

"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will, through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs, Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota). The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability. Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones, of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines." Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

Sounds good, Leigh. All the workbenches in my present shop are at 34" finished height so that if I am working with long materials, I can just lay it across the nearest bench that works. I also have a forklift, but over the years, I have used the monorail hoist more than just about anything else in the shop, except maybe for the beadblaster. The rail is the way to go for a one man operation. It keeps you from having to beg for unwilling help in handling things, yet retain hands-on control of the item. I plan to put some pics up of the rail as soon as I can.

RJ

Geothermal systems are the most efficient system available today. It always takes less energy to move heat than to generate it. Air source heat pumps get into trouble when the outside air gets below 32F or above 90F (for AC). Using ground source, the temp stays in the 32-55F range. Wells give you a more constant temp, but pumping tens of thousands of gallons of water out of an aquifer for heating does not seem like a good use of resources to me. I put in a ground loop geothermal system for my house. There's about 3600 ft of pipe in the ground loop buried around 6 foot down. When running in winter, the loop will probably get down to 32F (which is why they fill it with glycol). That will take care of AC, heat and, to some extent, hot water. I have talked to a number of people in the area (Michigan) who have done this and their January and Feburary heating bills tend to be in the $20 range. Yes, that's _twenty_ dollars. Of course, they are well insulated houses and our local utility gives you a special rate for geothermal. I'm still under construction and won't be running it until next winter. For me though, the choices were geothermal, propane or oil and the latter two for a primary source were not very attractive.

AC tends to be very efficient because you're dumping the heat into a cold sink, rather than 90+ F air.

The downside is the capital investment. Water source heat pumps large enough to handle a house are not cheap. Waterfurnace is one make, there are a couple of others.

I wonder if you could cobble something up to let an ordinary air heat pump work with a ground source? Seems like you'd just have to do something clever with the heat exchanger and you can probably get those for next to nothing.

I had a contractor do mine, but there's nothing in the installation that a reasonably handy person couldn't do, particulary if you have or can rent or borrow a backhoe. The units are sealed, so there's no handling of refrigerant. The hardest thing to do is to weld the ground loop so it's leak tight and then fill it and purge the air out of it. If you can get a unit, you could probably install it yourself for less than half of what a contractor would charge you. Still wouldn't be cheap though.

Although I did this for my house, I used radiant heat with a propane fired tankless 87%+ efficient hot water heater for the shop - block building with foamed insulation in the cores and 1.5 inches of styrofoam under the external sheathing. I should end up with an R12 wall if you believe the literature from the foam company. I built it that way because I was worried about fire. Doing it over though, I would probably use SIP construction. Masons have been consistently the worst group of contractors I have had to deal with.

One thing I did do right is to use scissor trusses for the roof. That gives a significant boost to the ceiling height in the center. I also put in a couple of skylights as well as a row of windows.

Another option, is a geothermal/radiant heat pump. I didn't investigate these, but they may be significantly cheaper than the geothermal/forced air unit I put in the house. Then again, maybe not :-)

Paul

This is the system I used. There are about a dozen of them around here. I built mine from the footings to the eaves in one solid wall. The foam wall is put up first and then it is filled with cement. The big advantage is that you end up with a monolithic slab for a wall, so there are no air gaps anywhere. It is important to plan ahead though, because if you need to add a hole later, it is difficult(but not impossible). The walls on the inside are finished anyway you choose(I went with OSB to withstand the inevetible dings in a shop). The outside can be finished in any conventional manner(mine is colored sheet steel). I have been taking pictures throughout the entire project, but have not gotten around to building a website yet. I can send you some if you want.

JW

You'd have to cover that area with glass to do it right. And metal heat exhangers.

I happen to have a huge solar hot water tank , 210 F x 517 gl. Got it RIGHT after 9/11 , was scared to drive it home on my truck! There is no slope on any of the buildings and not enough un-shaded areas in my yard. I'd have to completely redo my house roof , hmmm... Got it from one of Sammy Davis Jr.'s houses for nothing.

Someone told me that I should move everything out of my shop and put in floor heating ( I forgot about that.) and raise the floor. 10.5' ceiling.. Not like it is going to matter. Should put the slab on that pink stiren if you have the $. They do pools like that, spray yellow AB and gunite the pool on top. Things to make you go hmmm when your water leveling it.

I'd go solar in a second if I had the space and parts.

I'm in a 2-car garage space (actually under the garage) so my comments reflect my (lack of) space. I like to put everything that I can on wheels (with the ability to lock them down or block them up easily). I like/need to roll stuff around depending on the job at hand. The big tools/machines are stationary of course. I would like a 10' ceiling. All my florescent lights have plastic protector tubes. My ceiling lighting is on 2 circuits so if 1 goes out I still have light (unless all ...). My wall outlets are split over several circuits. Put in a couple of 20a single outlet circuits (120v) for heavy draw things (microwave oven, dehumidifier, etc.). My compressor is outside. I have 2 duplex 120v outlets (separate circuits) and 1 air line centered in my ceiling. I would like a ceiling air filter/circulator to minimize dust (neat freak?). The ceiling is R15 and the wall R21 (the ceiling is the concrete garage slab - my shop is height challenged hence the R15) and I have heat & a/c. I wish I had radiant heat in the floor but it was existing construction. My walls are antique white (pure white is really white!) and the ceiling is another shade of white. If you have water lines coming in put in a drain or 2 and hope you never have to use them! 2 years ago I helped vacuum up a commercial shop that had an overnight leak. Plan on having a couple of outlets up high for a clock, neon lighted sign, etc. Ditto on the other's suggestions on wiring and conduit for new runs.

What an opportunity! Alex

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@telus.net...

There isn't anywhere else to put the new shop. Space really is a problem!

I have go plans to build a utility room for SWMBO behind the existing garage after rebuilding it waterproof. That will be 8' wide at one end, 4' 6" wide at the other and 9' long. Did I mention that the plot is triangular? Proper distance to the property lines for both the old and the new structures is 3".

I know they are a pain, and expensive compared with a larger building. But I can't do larger. Storage (plus compressor, computers, etc) is ok since that would leave the main space for tools and projects. To get a house with a larger plot would be on the order of £100 000 more, so that's out as well. England is just too damned small :-(

It probably won't happen due to the complexity of it, but I'd bee a fool not to investigate it given the limitations of the plot.

I like cheap :-)

Regards Mark Rand RTFM

Speaking of radiant floor heating in the shop, it would seem like a good idea to somehow, very accurately, map the layout of your tubing in the floor. Someday you may want to run some anchor bolts into the concrete and it would really suck to hit a tube and have water squirting up through your floor.

--Dan