What are the size limitations of mini mills?

I've been looking for a while too. One of the biggest boo-boos I've seen with mini mills is that they usually have a round column. That coupled with the short quill stroke makes it difficult to go from a spotting drill to a jobber length drill. Look for one with the table dove-tailed into the column or a square column so that the table can be raised or lowered without turning. gl, John

I've got a mini-mill, the one that sells for $499 or so. I use it mostly for CNC demos. It has a 4" Y-axis travel. That is most likely the biggest limitation. Other than that, it has plastic gears in the head, and is awfully flexible for a machine tool. Mechanical flex, I mean, and that is not good!
Jon

I'm in the same boat, made worse by just having sold my Van Norman #12 before moving. I don't have room for a full sized mill.
I've had a mill-drill and wouldn't do it again. The round column (inability to change height without losing your position) and the lack of rigidity are real problems. I'm also suspicious that the screws don't wear well (mine was used and worn). I'm looking at a Clausing 8520 or a Millrite (used).
You might try digging around in the Yahoo groups and see what they talk about. Here's the one for Clausing: is probably one for Millrite, I don't know about Rong Fu. Another useful site: decent descriptions of many machines.
Steve Smith
Peter Grey wrote:

snip----> My personal opinion is to stay away from miniature machines for projects the likes of yours. I'd also avoid, like the plague, mill drills, unless you budget simply can't stand the cost of something better. It's RARE to find someone that is satisfied with a mill drill if they're using it as a milling machine, not a drill press.
There are small knee type mills available, which would be a far better choice, based on your suggested usage. Gorton, for one, made some that are small enough that you sit to run them, and Gorton is an outstanding builder of drop spindle type mills. I'd recommend one of their machines highly. There are others, too, of varying sizes, so I'd suggest you keep your eyes open for a "deal"and buy something that is much better suited to your needs. If space allows, though, I think a Bridgeport or Bridgeport clone might be a fine choice due to the flexibility of the machine. For the most part, no other type vertical mill offers all the features that they do in one machine. That's why Bridgeport was such a grand success, along with the cost, which used to be very reasonable.
A friend of mind has a mini-mill, CNC controlled. He's very happy with it, but he's machining wax to make patterns for investment casting. The rigidity of his machine would fall short, VERY short, of enough for satisfactory machining of most any metal. In machines tools, rigidity is everything. That's why they weigh so much.
Harold

(puts hand up -- me me ! :-)
I've had an RF30 for about four years now and it's served me well.
True, it's got limitations compared to a knee mill but I've done an awful lot of work on it and it has done everything I have asked of it (bearing in mind that I am aware of its limitations).
For me the choice was to buy an RF30 and have enough money left over to get some decent tooling, (rotary table, vice, clamping set, collets, flycutter, boring head, inserts, milling cutters, etc, etc) -- or to buy a knee mill and just spend my days looking at it and wishing I had all the accessories needed to use it.
One should always remember that unless you're planning to use your mill for production work or your income depends on it -- *any* mill is better than no mill :-)
You can always sell a mill-drill later and upgrade to a *real* mill if you want/need/can-afford to -- and then all that tooling and other bits you bought can still be used.
-- you can contact me via

I agree. I could spend a year looking for the "right" mill and not be able to do anything in the meantime. If I buy an RF30 or mini mill or whatever, I'll have the opportunity to make some stuff, experiment, and then buy something better if I determine it's what I need. In the meantime I will have learned a lot about machining and about what I prefer and want.
I understand that drill/mills aren't perfect, but there seem to be too many people on the web that are using the RF30 and its ilk successfully (while keeping in mind its limitations) to buy into the "mill/drills are useless" argument.
Thanks,
Peter

I agree in principle with each of you, but practical experience is a great teacher. One of the hard lessons learned in life is buying something that is ill suited to a job, then trying to liquidate it in order to replace it with a tool that is better suited. The better investment would have been the proper tool to do the job at the outset. Often times the money is gone and the tool simply can't do the job at hand, and has poor resale value, if it can be sold at all.
My point is that if a person buys a mini-mill, it is woefully underpowered and, in general, not really equipped to make parts, regardless of the fact that they can be placed on the machine table. For example, how about drilling a ½" or larger hole in steel? Seems like that would be one of the things Peter would encounter in his quest to build his projects.
When it comes to a mill drill, I recognize that they are better than nothing, but they are, at best, a poor compromise for a reasonable milling machine. The problems with mill drills have been well addressed, and addressing them yet again in this thread serves little to no purpose. Resale value isn't great, but then buying new is not all that expensive, either. I accept that fact that for those that are limited economically, and perhaps have no prospects of anything better in the future, they are better than nothing.
Regards the argument about being satisfied with one, one of my friends, a retired tool and die maker, owns one, and built his 1½" scale model steam locomotive with it, along with countless other projects. He's a patient person, willing to make the necessary sacrifices in order to achieve the end result. I respect him for that, but my time is far too valuable to spend it spinning my wheels endlessly, and achieving a less than acceptable end result because the machine simply doesn't have the necessary quality built into it. I guess it all depends on the nature of the work you intend to do, and the quality level that you find acceptable.
I used my Bridgeport for gain, mostly building tooling for the aero-space industry. I consider it the absolute minimum machine one could own and get reasonable results. I do not look at the Bridgeport as a great machine, but, like in your case, it was the minimum I found acceptable in order to accomplish my mission. No way in hell could I have done my work with a mill drill. Maybe now that I'm no longer working for gain I might see it differently, but I still have the Bridgeport and wouldn't give the idea a second thought as long as I do. I still do not recommend mill drills, and for many reasons.
Harold

A better financial investment perhaps, but I'm not concerned enough to have this be the only consideration. If I have to sell the mill/drill if I find something better, I will. I don't mind spending the time required in order to educate myself about which small used higher-quality machine will work, is in my price range, is truly small enough and is being sold by a source that I trust or is close enough so that I can look at the machine. While I'm doing that, I can be making things (or trying to) and learning on an RF30, which is a known entity. I've come to the same conclusion. It's not a matter of being limited economically with no prospects of anything better (Jeez, that sounds depressing). I'm trying to find a reasonable entry point into this "hobby". I've been heavily involved with - and taught - bicycle racing, music, car racing and other things that require equipment. I didn't buy the "best" equipment when I got into them because I didn't know if I needed it, and what my level of long term interest and competancy was going to be. I believe that there is a point of diminishing returns for most things. I'm not yet convinced that for my needs, the Bridgeport is the point of diminishing return.
I'm a jazz musician and there a ton of players that believe that one needs a $8,000 guitar in order to make good music. My 30 year old $1,500 guitar feels and sounds like a $8,000 guitar, but I wouldn't have recognized this guitar had I not owned and played a lot of other guitars. Those guitars weren't what I wanted ultimately, but I learned a ton by playing them. I'm sure that the equivilent of my guitar exists in the mill world. But I don't yet know enough to recognize the used mill I need when I see it. Maybe after hacking around on an RF30 for a year or so, I will. Or I may be satisfied with what I have. BTW, I've got a bunch of guitars, all with different purposes. You can never have too many - it's just like machine tools.
I'm not going to be making my living at this and I don't think I can fit a Bridgeport in my garage. I live in San Francisco and my house was built 90 years ago. Garages just weren't a priority. There may very well be a small Bridgeport or other high quality mill in my future. Using an RF 30 will play an important role in learning enough to make an intelligent choice on the "point of diminishing return" machine - assuming that for me the RF30 isn't it.
Regards,
Peter

What you want is a solid mill, inexpensive, that fits into a small shop - with a small footprint and low overhead. Bounus points for high quality and a 'name.'
I would suggest what I chose for a similar application:
This machine looks like hell but it just won't quit cutting metal. Total cost from a used machinery dealer was $800 about ten years ago. It had been pretty well abused and I had to replace the handwheels, and make a new feed nut for the table. But after cleaning it up it's been a strong worker in my shop and does not require much attention at all.
The latest chip-fest involved making a specialized puller for removing a timing gear from a vintage motorcycle crank. The correct puller would cost about a bazillion dollars if one could find one for sale, and they're not for sale. So I had to take some chunks-O-steel and build two blocks that would get under the gear, in the limited space. Then I had to drill mating holes in a steel ring to hold them, and allow a puller to grab. The thing worked first time, and it was all hogged out, rough and ready, on the horizontal. The limiting factor was how tightly the small vise would hold the parts - early on in the project I realized that a part rip-out was entirely possible.
You can find machines like this, in much better condition than the one I bought (I have a soft spot for 'wing-down' stuff) for a bit more money. Watch on ebay and you do sometimes see them go by.
Jim
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Is this a good or a bad thing? Is the bottle half full or half empty?
if the resale value is so poor then it stands to reason that you can pick one up second hand at a very attractive price -- and as long as you look after it, there's no reason why you can't recoup most of that money when you on-sell it later.
-- you can contact me via

Jim, do you happen to have a parts break down for that Hardinge Tm? I have most of what I think is a UM sitting in my trailer at the moment..it followed me home last night...
I have the mill, no power feed stuff, the table, one hand wheel, no lead screw and the brackets are missing along with the bearings on the side to side axis.
Once again..someone took something apart to clean and paint..and lost parts, then lost interest. Its damned nice looking now..with a sorta tourqoise paint job..but incomplete.
Id like to complete it, but need a blowup diagram to see whats missing. These mills are about the only Hardinge machines I dont have manuals or access to manuals for.
Gunner
"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

This is a horizontal mill, yes? My understanding was that they're not as versatile as a vertical mill...?
Maybe I should try to find a used machine tools dealer in my area.
Peter
Grey

Horizontal mills are as versatile as vertical mills, but are more difficult to do some things with. On the other hand, they do some things better than vertical mills.
Depending on your application, they both have strengths and weaknesses. I have two verts and one horizontal, and find myself using the horizontal more often than the two verts combined, some months, and visa versa in others.
I also use the heck out of a shaper.
Gunner
"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

You might consider a small industrial m/c such as the Centec. The model 2B with a vertical head is about the same size as a standard mill/drill on a stand - its essentially a horizontal mill, but Centec made a very fine vertical head for it that converts it into a vertical knee mill. It also has power feed to the table. They are usually available for just a little more than a basic RF-30 without a stand - add a stand and power feed and the Centec wins. I have two friends - one has a Centec 2B and the other has an RF-30. I've used them both and, for me, there is no contest.
-- Regards, Gary Wooding
(Change feet to foot to reply)

Understood. The only fly in the ointment is that what you'll be learning is how to wrestle with a given machine, with little to no idea of how good or bad it is as it compares to other types of machines. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that mill drills have no place, but they don't in my life. I have as much experience with mills as you do with guitars. Bottom line here is when you get more experience, one of the things you'll regret is buying a machine without a knee, assuming you'll find yourself involved in making something that requires various cutting tools and precision locating of holes and related features. That, of course, is a matter of how you learn to work. If you're a layout man, do everything by scratching lines and center popping every hole, it likely makes no difference. Personally, I can't remember the last time I made any kind of layout for drilling, and my machine shop toolbox doesn't have a center punch in it. There are far better ways to do work, so as a result I don't go that route. By the way, using a DRO isn't how I go about my work. I trust my dials, but then I've done that since the mid 50's and it's something I'm comfortable with. It's all a matter of training and learned habits.
Yeah, it does, but that's the real world for some folks. There are those that would give anything to own even a mill drill.
diminishing Note that I did NOT recommend a Bridgeport, I simply stated that a Bridgeport was the minimum level of acceptance for me considering the nature of the work that would be received. I didn't go into my shop blindly, I already knew that I would be doing tooling and product for the aero-space industry. Yep, and that's my point. I noticed you weren't talking about a guitar from Sears, and that's the equivalent of a mill drill.
How much do you suppose Wes Montgomery paid for his? I understand, as a novice, where you're coming from considering my love for stereo equipment, and my main listening pleasure, jazz
Based on your description, you may be locked in to buying something less than a Bridgeport TYPE of mill (drop spindle), I agree. Still, you have options that would be a better choice, but those are decisions you must make, not me. That's why I said what I did, giving you a view of an opinion from someone that may see mill drills slightly differently from a guy that has one but has never owned anything else. Ask a guy that has an underpowered car if he's happy with it and he's likely to tell you he is, until he's driven one with more power, anyway. And so it is with machining features, whereby running a machine becomes less of a hassle by adding particular features, one of which is a knee. Again, the call is yours. Understand, though, that learning to run a mill drill will not be the same as learning to run other machines, just as running bench top machines does not equate to running larger machines. You will go through a learning curve with each upgrade, but at least you'll have been making chips in the interim, I agree.
I wish you luck with your choice, and would be interested in hearing what you end up with.
Harold

Gunner, check the Hardinge-Mill Yahoo group. There's one in the files section.
Pete Keillor

I hate when that happens. Well, OK. Not me. *She* hates it....
I thought you needed one and got it, a while ago. It will take me a day or so to copy the one I have (which is actually a copy that one of the hardinge folks sent me) and I could pass it along to you.
I think I have your address at work.
Jim
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Or without a quill, if he buys a horizontal.... :^)
But Harold, facts are that in many cases a DRO with glass slides is simply more accurate than the lead screws. Unless the guy happens to purchase a Moore jig borer or something. When was the last time you really *checked* your lead screws for errors?
Hmm. Not Sears. More like Wal-Mart. That's about the right level.
I think another analogy which might be appropriate here, is comparing, say, a milling attachment for a lathe, with a mill-drill. The guy with only a milling attachment will be quite envious of the man with the wal-mart mill drill.
Quite true. Each machine teaches new techniques, and has has its own particular quirks. Some of the stuff is broadly applicable, like measuring and indicating and edge-finding.
I think that for me at least that machinery is really a target of opportunity. I would have bought a mill-drill if I had found one in pieces and could buy it cheap and fix it up, or if it were othewise 'a deal' in some way. That's how a lot of my stuff wound up in my shop!
Jim
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Right. The spindle axis is horizontal. The spindle has no 'quill' which is defined as a movable section that slides in and out of the casting. Most horizontal machines (here we are leaving out the aceiras and deckels because they are basically lear jets) don't have a quill the way vertical ones do.
Folks use the quill in a bridgeport type machine to drill, mostly. So it becomes a super-solid drill press, with really slow back gear speeds - so you can run honking huge drills in it, with the drill held in a collet so it won't slip.
In a horizontal, any drilling gets done with the X (in and out) axis handwheel, so it's a bit cumbersome. My solution to this is to either a) spot the holes in the horizontal with a center drill and transfer the part to my dril press and finish them off there, or b) simply lay the holes out by hand, centerpunch, and do the whole job on the drill press, for low accuracy stuff. The puller I just made had *all* the holes done right in place on the horizontal, and I was glad to have the slower speeds available there because it was a stainless ring I was drilling.
Just about the only time I put the vertical head on this machine (which in this case is a bridgeport M head, adapted to it) is when I need to mount a rotary table on the machine, and machine downwards in towards it. I have the vertical head, it almost never gets used, in spite of its having a quill.
This could be a good idea. Where are you located? You should be going to places like this just to see what they have, what's available. Don't express any strong interests in any given machine, just see what's out there. It's kind of like used car shopping. Sometimes something just jumps right out at you.
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