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Why hasn't the NRA stepped up and paid the hospital bills of the Colorado shooting victums?

That chart doesn't tell you anything about "spray and pray". Imagine Napoleon marching one of his immense tightly packed formations into the field of fire of a couple of miniguns. Spray 10 rounds a second at that kind of target and there's no need for prayr.

The reason the casualty rates started dropping afte the Civil War doesn't have anything to do with "spray and pray". It has to do with a change in tactics, and that change in tactics came about because of a change in technology.

In the Napoleonic wars and the Civil War the primary infantry weapon was a muzzle-loader. The ones in the Civil War were rifled and more accurate than Napoleon's but had the same limitation, which is that one has to stand to load them. If one has convenient cover (a tree to duck behind for example, or a trench with a firing step) then one can load with safety. If one does not have convenient cover then one has to just stand there in the middle of the battlefield presenting a target while one reloads.

After the Civil War muzzle loaders were abandoned in favor of breech loaders, which allow one to load in just about any position, thus allowing soldiers to crouch or lie prone and present a much smaller target. Also doctrine changed due to lessons learned in the Civil War (one of which is that marching big battalions into the field of fire of a prepared position against rifle and artillery fire is suicidal) and in WWI much of the activity was in the slow dance of prepared positions, moving the trenches back and forth, and there were more casualties from the diseases inherent in living in a trench than from enemy action, not because anyone "sprayed and prayed", but because far fewer soldiers presented themselves as easy targets.

After the Civil War the development of mobile radio changed things again, with infantry no longer slugging it out with hand-held weapons but serving a scouting function, and calling in artillery and air assets when contact is made. Infantry tends to keep much wider separation and try to avoid being seen, so again fewer and more difficult targets.

Now you can't even tell who the enemy is until he starts shooting at you.

Reply to
J. Clarke
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The American Civil War was the first war fought with rifled weapons which were far more accurate then smooth bore weapons but more importantly were accurate of a much longer distance.

Using smooth bore muskets you could probably assume that you would hit the man you aimed at 50 yards but beyond that odds of a hit decreased rapidly. The standard of accuracy of the Springfield Rifled Musket, on the other hand was 10 out of 10 shots on a one foot square at 200 yards.

Which meant that while marching a body of troops toward an apposing enemy armed with muskets was a relatively safe practice and the standard tactic of marching a group straight toward the enemy until you reached a distance of about 50 yards, firing a volley and then charging with the bayonet was usually successful. On the other hand faced with a weapon that was capable of hitting a man at 200 yards, or more, meant that by the time you reached the 50 yard point a substantial percentage of your troops were dead or wounded.

Cheers, John B.

Reply to
John B.

Hardly. It is called a clip because that was a device used to load a rifle up through WW II and out of date terms are frequently used long after they have been replaced by more accurate or descriptive terms.

can be quickly separated from the rifle for reloading...for instance, instead of having a clip; pump shotguns, lever action and most bolt action-type rifles generally will have a tubular type magazine which, for all practical purposes; is permanently attached..

almost exclusively.

So? I was in the Service for a while and heard people using terms that were incorrect - bullet for cartridge, motor for engine, six-by for truck, Tug for tractor (used to tow airplanes), "Leg" or "Straight Leg" for common infantry, and on and on. Hardly proof that any of the terms were correct.

Cheers, John B.

Reply to
John B.

The real goal of armies is to conquer territory. Chasing the enemy away is as effective for that as killing them.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

We asked pilots what they called their rides, expecting then to answer "Chopper" or "Helo". There wasn't really a consensus but "aircraft" was common.

jsw

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

That automatically disqualifies you from the Marine Corps.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

And thank God for those bastards of ours!

-- When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary. -- Thomas Paine

(comparing Paine to the current CONgress )

Reply to
Larry Jaques

Maybe. I read it and Clausewitz a long time ago.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

almost exclusively.

Why when I was in they referred to it as the "cartridge box".

Reply to
pyotr filipivich

They weren't suppose to "spray and pray", but "service the target". The theory is that volume of accurately delivered rifle fire is what counts, hence the development of the box magazine and bolt action. The Automatic Self-loading Rifle (M-1 etc) meant that non-rifle men (the majority of soldiers) could provide that "accurately delivered rifle fire" with less need to spend lots of time drilling bolt manipulation into their heads. Full auto - more of the same.

Given the necessary skills, and the time for development to their peak, I could use a 22 short derringer pistol, because I could put both shorts in their eye sockets. Or I could use an M-4 "carbine" and put 3 in the center of mass, and spend my time pitching woo, or some other way of investing my time.

Reply to
pyotr filipivich

"J. Clarke" on Tue, 31 Jul 2012 03:06:28 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Not to be too pedantic, but the MG did "spray" and pray. as well as the arty.

Both the American Civil War, and the Great War, are examples of technology outstripping the tactical doctrine. What made the American war so bloody was using Napoleonic tactics against the new technology of rifled barrel and Minie ball. Likewise in France, tactics which worked against a rifle armed enemy, did not fare so well against one armed with MG and able to call down accurate rapid firing artillery.

And with the invention of "smokeless" powders, it is even harder to tell where he is.

Kids these days, we should have stuck with rocks!

pyotr

Reply to
pyotr filipivich

"Jim Wilkins" on Tue, 31 Jul 2012 06:13:30

-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

As me Dad would say "It isn't over till some tired private plops down in the middle of the village square, says 'my feet hurt, when do we eat, is there any mail, and where the heck am I?'." I'll take his word for it.

tschus pyotr

Reply to
pyotr filipivich

Your ability to recall arkane trivia that is unlikely to prove useful = for anything other than demonstrating your ability to recall useless = trivia on usenet is truly amazing.

something that can be quickly separated from the rifle for = reloading...for instance, instead of having a clip; pump shotguns, lever = action and most bolt action-type rifles generally will have a tubular = type magazine which, for all practical purposes; is permanently = attached..

"clip" almost exclusively.=20

Except, I never made any claims about the "techinical correctness" of = the term "clip" either way...

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=20

Reply to
PrecisionmachinisT

Then you might like this:

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was the berserker raiding German trenches at midnight for fun, the only ground soldier I've heard of who enjoyed fighting WW1.

jsw

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

Promptly followed by by a short Sargeant, making some choice comments in crude language?

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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.

As me Dad would say "It isn't over till some tired private plops down in the middle of the village square, says 'my feet hurt, when do we eat, is there any mail, and where the heck am I?'." I'll take his word for it.

tschus pyotr

-- pyotr Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

"Jim Wilkins" on Tue, 31 Jul 2012 18:35:31

-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Might as well enjoy life, you're not getting out of it.

McBride was one of those people who recognized that there is no "virtue" in just pussyfooting around, when it comes to war. The whole idea is to kill them and break their stuff. Or break enough of their stuff to make them quit. There's a bunch of them in every war.

tschuspyotr

Reply to
pyotr filipivich

But their uniforms are too scarey!

Reply to
Tom Gardner

As an NRA Certified instructor, we are not allowed to use the wrong terms, it's confusing to our students. The NRA will often have plants in classes to evaluate instructors. In the years that I have been teaching CCW, Basic Pistol, Basic Rifle, Basic Shotgun, In-Home Defense, Out of home Defense, Metallic Cartridge reloading, Shotshell Reloading and Range Officer Certification, I haven't been aware of an NRA plant but I don't take chances with sloppy, incorrect nomenclature. I believe your experience is an aberration, AND you should know better.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

Didn't Patton say that the M-1 Garrand was the best battle weapon ever invented...or was it only in the movie?

Reply to
Tom Gardner

Believe whatever you want to, it's free country.

Reply to
J. Clarke

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