widening door opening to move heavy metal into shop

Hello, all, I need to increase the width of my doorway to acommodate a new machine going into my basement. This isn't typical metalworking
gear, but a surface mount pick and place machine. It is about 51 inches the narrow way and 1500 Lbs. My current doorway is 36" wide, and I never ran into this before. I got my 15" Sheldon lathe and Bridgeport through the door easily. The walls are 8" thick, but magnets seem to indicate no rebar in there.
Here's my current plan, please shoot it down now if you see something wrong, before I spend a bundle on stuff that won't work. I have a metal doorframe that is cast into the concrete. I am planning on cutting the frame and then using diamond saws in a circular saw to cut the wall. Using a 7" blade, I can cut 2.5" deep into the wall. If I cut from both sides, that will leave a 3" part in the center that is not cut. After completing the cuts, I could whack it with a sledge hammer or drive a wedge into the slit to break the remaining concrete. (I know I have to run these blades wet, any idea whether I can get away with this on a cheapie wood circular saw? I was figuring a small tube attached to the garden hose spraying a jet on the blade. Maybe I could even use my Loc-Line coolant nozzle parts!)
Then, I need to get at least part of a matching doorframe, or an entire vertical part plus ~18" of the top, and weld it to the existing frame. Finally, I need to get a new door, either solid wood or insulated steel.
Other options are to keep the existing door and add a second door and a mullion (is that the right word when it applies to doors?) that can be removed when you need the full opening.
So, any ideas how to do this, as cheaply and quickly (and painlessly) as possible? (Hmmm, water jet sounds like a good idea, but I don't have one.)
Anybody know where to get such doors and frames? Home Depot has all these gorgeous $2700 carved wood doors with oval cut glass windows, but nothing whatsoever in metal -- at least on the web.
Jon
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you can get a small wet saw from makita that is like a skilsaw. use a gfi plug of course.
exterior wall patio french doors? they don't have a center bar. that's what i have in my shop.
regards, charlie cave creek, az
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"Jon Elson" wrote: (clip) So, any ideas how to do this, as cheaply and quickly (and painlessly) as possible? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ First, I hope you can increase the width by cutting one side only. Otherwise, you have twice the labor.
Consider reinstalling the present door after the machine is in. You could replace the part of the concrete wall you removed with a removable 2x4 and sheet rock panel. Since I imagine it is an outside door, you could use sheet of metal on the outside of the panel for weather resistance, and finish it to match the metal door.
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If this is poured concrete, I can't belive there isn't some rebar somewhere. And it should be in the middle where you won't be able to cut it. :(
You can get the slotted or 'turbo' blades that can be run dry. LOTS of dust if you do it that way so figure out how to deal with it. I'd suggest a plastic tarp a few feet back of the opening, take the door off before hand. I'd consider renting a gas powered powered 14" saw. My local rental place does a 4 hr rental for $45 plus blade costs.
You might check with a "concrete drilling and sawing" place, see what they would charge. They do this all the time, yours is a simple operation. They might be able to go all the way through from the outside, if there is any rebar, it's a non issue.
The doors you want will be commercial duty, rated firedoors. They come with a full frame so no need to splice the existing one. Just install the new frame and door. Suppliers should be listed under 'fire doors' You probably don't care about the rating, it's just that that is who supplies them.
Assuming you want at least 54" of clear space, that is really too big for one door. Best approach is to do a double door, one with bolt latches and a mullion strip, the other is a standard door. I think you will find that you might as well go all the way out to 60" or even 72". Unlikely to be much differce in price for the doors, same labor for the cutting.
Jon Elson wrote:

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RoyJ wrote:

OH OH! Thanks for the smart idea! I'd be in a hell of a fix if that was true, and it sure makes sense. I used a massively powerful magnet from a hard drive and didn't feel any pull at all. But, I will try it on a 3/8" bolt at 4" distance to make sure I could sense any iron in the wall at the maximum distance.

Yup, that sounds like the way to go. I had thought of it, but I'm so CHEAP I wanted to do it with what I had on hand.

The reason to save the existing frame is entirely to reduce labor. To remove this frame I will likely have to CUT it out! It was placed in the forms before the concrete was poured, so the wall side of the frame is filled with concrete. I might be able to split the frame down the center line and pry it off the concrete. I'm hoping to avoid that. Even if I buy a whole new frame, I am tempted to cut it to avoid removing part of the old one. I'll have to examine the thing more before I decide.

Well, they definitely have single doors 60+ inches wide at hospitals. I'll bet they are expensive, too. I've been thinking about double doors with a removable mullion, too.
Thanks again for the good ideas,
Jon
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RoyJ wrote:

I doubt that there's rebar. Assuming this is a house basement the OP is dealing with. Most residential basement walls do not use rebar. In my experience. Jon - you might inquire about it in your area. Bob
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An oxygen lance will slice through concrete and rebar with no trouble, my brother has done this with reinforced poured concrete. You need full leather protection, it's like standing next to a volcano and anything combustible nearby will catch fire but it will CUT!! Committees of Correspondence Web page:- tinyurl.com/y7th2c
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Jon Elson wrote:

You'll need to find a supplier of commercial metal doors and frames. "Hollow metal" doors/frames is what it's called in the industry. You may want to consider a standard 3' door and a smaller door to fit the available space, with a removable mullion. I seen such doors made. Anchoring of the frame is generally done using special expansion bolts with a countersunk head, frame prepared to match. I'm not clear on whether this should be a fire-rated door or not, but if it is, the frame may need grouting.
--
Gary Brady
Austin, TX
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How about changing it to a door and a roll up shop door. I have 4 10' wide roll ups. The normal door is nice to walk in.
Martin Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot"s Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com /
Gary Brady wrote:

-
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Hi, Jon. Do you or your heirs ever intend on removing the p/p machine in one piece? If so, you might be better off to spring for double metal doors if the basement design will allow it. Are you going to bring in a convection oven to solder the circuit boards after the new p/p get the components set? These are a lot wider than your p/p machine.
What kind of p/p machine do you have? I have an old Dynapert MPS-318HR and a year old Mydata MY-9 in my plant. We love the Mydata! The 318 takes toolin plates to hold the board panels. Lots of milling machine work on double sided boards. The Mydata uses clamps and pins with magnetic bases to hold the boards. This cut down the use of tooling plates, except for the solder paste machine.
Paul in Redmond, OR

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co snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

I do small boards, and don't plan to panelize them. I am planning to make my own oven, and it won't be any bigger than the P&P machine. But, it will be nearly as big.

The machine I am probably going to get is a Philips CSM84.

The Philips has a conveyor, I think, so ordinary rectangular boards shouldn't require tooling, unless they are large.
Jon
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wrote:

I ordered a Stanley steel double door thru Home Depot. No center mullion, clear opening with both doors open is 72".
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Don Foreman wrote:

Great, thanks! They don't show stuff like this on their web site, or at least it doesn't come up when you search for "doors". I'll check for Stanley. I actually don't need 72", but if that is what they carry, it may be the best I can do.
Jon
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Can you try harder to convince Everyone (even youself) that there is no way to take the P&P machine apart into flatter peices that turn sideways and go through the doorway?
Unless the frame is a sold weldment, it shoudl dis-assemble.
I've taken things apart that I couldn't move before, it was SO much faster than struggling with something that I couldn't handle by myself. A lathe in one case, I easily carried the bed, headstock parts, and parts of the carriage by myself.
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Half-Nutz wrote:

The Quad is clearly made of huge welded square tube. The pictures I have gotten of the Philips don't show enough internal detail to be sure, but even if it could be taken apart, I don't want to spend a month getting all the axes back into alignment. This is a high-precision machine, and it is probably not designed to ever be disassembled in the field.

I will need a forklift to get it off the semi when it arrives. If I can have the door already set up, then I can put it right into place before returning the lift truck. That is my plan.
Jon
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Jon,
Something else to consider before you hack up the concrete.
Is there any other holes in the wall like an aluminum store front for example? If so, it might be cheaper to gave a glass company disassemble the store front and reassemble it after you move the machine.
Another possibility is if you have a skylight big enough you might be able to fork lift the machine to the roof, and them lower it down with some sort of winch arrangement.
If you do have to widen the opening, a hinged door is not your only option. Roll up doors can be made in any width and they might be a better option.
If you do decide to go with a regular door set up the mullion is a lot better option than a wide single.
--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
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Just to reinforce something: You can get 2 single doors with a post (semiremovable) in the center or you can get 2 doors where one door is latched with bolts into the floor and frame and has a mullion strip attached, the other door functions like a regular door 99% of the time.
You want the doors with the mull strip. We have the 2 doors with post style in all our labs, we have to take the posts out on a regular basis to get equipment in. RPITA.
Roger Shoaf wrote:

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RoyJ wrote:

You are right. I would only pull the mullion out every 3-4 years, but still, it is something extra to pay for. The plain double door is the best for my needs after all.
Thanks,
Jon
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Jon,
By trade I am a locksmith, and in my experience, the double doors without a mullion are not worth a tinkers damn. On steel doors the active door beats the snot out of the passive door in short order and it is real easy to pry the suckers open. With the mullion style there is a whole lot more substance to the setup.
--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
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Second that from the exerience of not being a locksmith and for most of the last 20 years working out in the same college gym we have not needed a key to open the locked doors. They fail within a couple years. Karl

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