Kasenite case hardening

Needed to case harden some parts today - first time in a while. Dug
out my tub of 'Kasenite substitute' Dagarnite which I bought over a
year ago at one of the shows - I think from Chronos but maybe not.
Now with genuine Kasenite you can heat the part to cherry red, dip it
in the Kasenite tin, and when you pull it out the Kasenite will have
fused round it and you can carry on with the torch to let the carbon
be absorbed. So I did this without reading the label (as per normal
) and nothing stuck to the part . . humph ! In desperation while
holding torch in one hand, tongs with part in second hand I used my
third hand to pick up the pot and read the destructions. "fill
container to 75% heat part put it in, carry on heating for 1/2 hour .
. mmmm OK I got an acceptable result in the end using a tuna tin but
not as convenient.
Now I remember someone commenting that in the absence of the right
stuff sugar could be used at a pinch - it is after all mainly carbon
and was used by WW2 POWs to make wire cutters hard - and thinks I - it
goes sticky when hot! So I just tried an experiment, and mixed castor
sugar with the Dagarnite and used it with the 'dip method' - it does
actually work and now adheres to the red hot metal but is not as good
as genuine Kasenite.
....so to the crux of the matter - who's got a few drums of the
genuine stuff lying arround that I can liberate?
AWEM
Reply to
Andrew Mawson
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The stuff Chronos sells is unbranded but is similar in that you have to put it into a container containing the preheated part and continue to apply heat for 5 minutes; it's fun because the powder outgasses and blows itself out of the container and creates an impressive cloud of sparks. Did this the first time in the garage and nearly sh*t myself! The next time I did it outside and fabricated a loose fitting lid for the container. The ingredients are listed as charcoal, molasses and sodium bicarbonate (I guess thats what causes the outgassing). It's a wasteful method because you can't really reuse the powder as it ignites and burns down to a grey ash and I would imagine that the sodium bicarbonate would be completely broken down after a short time. Martin
Reply to
Martin Whybrow
In message , Andrew Mawson writes
Well - can't imagine the Tuna were too impressed by that treatment either.
IC
Reply to
Ian Cockshull
Andrew
carbon
carbon
castor
Well they didn't complain - at least not as much as Kippers would have
AWEM
Reply to
Andrew Mawson
I presume that this is what the molases in the recipe is meant to achieve.
£25 seems a lot to pay for a kilo of charcoal, molases, and sodium bicarbonate (the powder I have lists sodium carbonate instead) so does anyone know the correct proportions for the mix or have an alternative home brew recipe?
Russell.
Reply to
Russell Eberhardt
A book I looked in (DA.Lowe's Pocket Book for mechanical Engineers circa1914) suggests that you can use any substance rich in carbon "such as bone dust, horn shavings, or yellow prussiate of potash"
Regards Kevin
I really must buy some newer books!
Reply to
Kevin Steele
"Russell Eberhardt" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
alternative
Extensive Googling has revealed that genuine Kasenit is still being advertised in the US but I suspect that the cost of import is probably prohibitively high although the prices there seem quite reasonable.
Examples at:
http://216.26.168.192/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=5&subId=65&styleId=813&partNum=KASENIT and
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It seems that it contains Sodium Ferro-Cyanide ( Yellow Prussate of Soda) so maybe the Nannies of Whitehall & Brussels have banned it - anyone know if it is actually still legally available here in the UK?
AWEM
Reply to
Andrew Mawson
I don't know if it's the "real" stuff, but Blackgates Engineering list Kasenite powder on their website:
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Might be worth ringing them to see if it's the genuine article.
Alastair
Reply to
Alastair
In fact, if it's the same stiff as Kasenit (without the "e"), then EKP supplies also sell it - see
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If you download their catalogue, it's on page 20 at the bottom
Alastair
Reply to
Alastair
I can ask at the hardening shop across the road. I do have a quart tin but to be honest they charge that little at the back door that it's not worth starting the torch. Just had ninety five 5/8" square inserted boring tools case hardened and professionally blacked for £35 -- Regards,
John Stevenson Nottingham, England.
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Reply to
John Stevenson
Yellow Prussiate of Potash is legally available, I don't know about Kasenit(e).
I actually bought some yellow prussiate of potash (potassium ferrocyanide, K4Fe(CN)6.3H2O, YPP henceforth for convenience) a couple of months ago [*] from a reputable UK chemical supplier, and I know of several UK companies who will sell it in smallish quantities (at a price).
There is even a chap in Germany who sells it on eBay, under the name gelbes blutlaugensalz - really - usually goes for about 10 Eu per kilo, and that is probably the simplest and cheapest way to buy a kilo, though I don't know what he charges for postage.
While I would not want to eat or breathe YPP, it is not toxic like eg potassium cyanide ar even worse, cyanide gas.
Only thing is, dipping red-hot metal into it will create potassium cyanide ... and cyanide gas ... both of which are bad buggers.
The lack of availability may be because the manufacturers don't want the responsibility rather then an edict from on high. Or perhaps the use of YPP in case hardening has been banned, rather than the chemical itself - I simply don't know.
Any idea say what else Kasenit(e) contains? It may have ingredients to ameliorate the release of cyanide, but I'm just guessing.
[1] for use in direct silver plating on austenitic stainless steels, for the inside parts of LOX pumps. Silver won't burn in LOX, unlike stainless which will (and rather spectacular it is too!).
Reply to
Peter Fairbrother
Alastair,
I spotted that and emailed them a few days ago to see what it actually was, but so far they haven't responded
AWEM
Reply to
Andrew Mawson
Alastair,
Blackgate are selling a 'substitute' but speaking to them today it seems that it does contain the sodium ferro-cyanide so I've ordered some to give it a whirl.
AWEM
Reply to
Andrew Mawson
Hope it don't come wrapped in newspaper -- Regards,
John Stevenson Nottingham, England.
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Reply to
John Stevenson
You might try pot ferricyanide - use in photography for bleaching prints and films - it should be easily available, and "might" work..
I often wonder at the similarities between Kasenit(e) - "case harden it", and KCN - pot cyanide, which as several have mentioned, may be released in the heating of Kasenit(e), and which may be the main agent in the commericl case hardening process - much more effective than straight carbon, and utterly lethal! Now only found in chromium plating works etc.
Dave.
Reply to
speedy
ferrocyanide,
released in
OK The Blackgates "Kasenit" arrived this morning (bless the postie @ 6am!) and I've just tried a sample and its every bit as good as the original.
The "DAGARNITE" I was using before contains 'Charcoal, Sodium Carbonate Solution & Molases'
The "Blackgates Kasenit" contains 'Sodium Chloride, Potassium ferro-cyanide, charcoal, Calcium Phosphate'
I don't know what the original Kasenit contained, but the MSDS sheet (safety info) only refers to Sodium Ferro-cyanide as being 46% of it.
I wonder if the common salt in the 'Blackgates' is what gives it the adhesion when hot as the salt fuses ?
In conclusion the Blackgates version is a good substitute, and adheres well to the hot metal when dunked (though it does seem to give off more fumes).
AWEM
Reply to
Andrew Mawson
Did you think to try kippers ? -- Regards,
John Stevenson Nottingham, England.
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Reply to
John Stevenson
sheet
adheres
Sadly clean out of Kippers !
AWEM
Reply to
Andrew Mawson
It would work - but it will very likely give off considerably more cyanide as gas. Avoid strongly.
Think of polos - you want the one with the "o" in the middle.
I checked 17 suppliers lists, 11 offer potassium ferricyanide, and all but one of those 11 offer both potassium ferricyanide and potassium ferrocyanide.
On the sodium/potassium question - mostly people who choose sodium compounds over similar potassium compounds do so because they are cheaper, especially in larger quantities. In general the potassium compound does just as good a job - often better.
Reply to
Peter Fairbrother
ferrocyanide,
I have just acquired a container of Potassium FerricCyanide (K3Fe(CN)6) from someobody who had it in his cupboard and didn't know how to dispose of it; is it really that more hasardous (in use for case hardening) than K4Fe(CN)6 (would it really give off more CN)? Is it of any use to brew my own 'Kasenite' substitute? Have I just solved his problem and created my own disposal problem? Martin
Reply to
Martin Whybrow

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