Adiabatics

Chris Taylor Jr wrote:


It looks like what Chris is calling "top posting" is actually not quoting for context at all, but assuming that the reader is directly viewing the prior message.
Depending on what software the reader is using, this may be a bad assumption.
-dw
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Kaplow
Chris is assuming I think that the reader just read the message before it and clicked the next button to read the reply.

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ArtU wrote:

Right - but "the message before it" may not be the same one he's seeing. (For example, I generally have the display sorted by date rather than by thread linkage...)
-dave w
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So your telling me you are not viewing the threads in thread locked format. what kind of crappy browser are you using ?
either way the browser HAS to sort the message some way so OLDER message will ALWAYS be higher in the list than newer message.
this tells me you are stretching for an answer that you do not have.
99.9999999% of usenet will view usenet forums in descending chronological thread locked formatting.
This is DEFAULT on every one of the dozens and dozens of news readers I have played with.
IF YOU have your messages listed in ANY format besides top to bottom then it is YOU who are viewing newsgroups OUTSIDE the standards of our language. not me.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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If you are reading messages out of order sorry man but that is YOUR problem 100%
that is like jumping into a book in the middle and getting pissed off at the author for not have a synopsis of the entire previous part that you skipped on whatever page you started.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
Once again, it seems like it's the rest of the world against Chris:
http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post http://web.presby.edu/~nnqadmin/nnq/nquote.html
-------------------- "Top-posting is akin to walking down any High Street on Saturday wearing wellingtons and a bright pink tutu with 'I Know Little and Care Less' tattooed on your forehead and a sign saying 'Kick Me' taped to your back."
- Sarah [swroot], Re: Blue Mountain Coffee, 30-01-2001 04:53:11 PST, uk.food+drink.misc (newsgroup)
-------------------- From "How not to look like an idiot: (http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk /)
Why should I not put my reply where I want to?
Because it makes the message harder to read.
Also, it depends if you want to be taken seriously or not. if you want the people who will be able to help you to actually do that, adhering to conventions is a good idea.
Usenet posts (and emails) should flow like a conversation - listen, then reply.
Or, if you want to get really pedantic about it:
Excepted from rfc1855
- if you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just enough text of the original to give a context. this will make sure readers understand when they start to read your response. since netnews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a response to a message before seeing the original. giving context helps everyone. but do not include the entire original!
But quoting at the top of the message is quicker - that way you don't have to scroll down to find an answer - it makes much more sense!
Quicker for who ? with upside down quoters, you have to scroll down to find the context, then scroll back up to read the actual new text. with normal people's messages, it's all inline. much easier to read.
In fact, I had to go to the bottom of your post before I knew what the context of this post was. then I had to return to the top to read what you had written about it.
--
Mike KD7PVT
NAR #70953 - Sr/HPR Level-1 ~ SeaNAR - The Seattle NAR Section #568
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nojunk@this_address.com (Mike Pearson <see .sig>) wrote:
Reading this thread is like homework or an SAT test or something :)

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Bottom Posting:
Q: Why is bottom posting such a bad thing? A: >Why is bottom posting such a bad thing? Beacause it messes up the normal flow of conversation that has been used for hundreds of years.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? A: >What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? Bottom Posting.
Now how would this conversation above look if done by a TOP poster as you call it.
Top Posting:
Q: Why is bottom posting such a bad thing? A: Beacause it messes up the normal flow of conversation that has been used for hundreds of years.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? A: Bottom Posting.
Wow thats interesting. it looks like a NORMAL conversation.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

wearing
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top posting: I think the news group gives a rats prize at this point.....
Joel. phx

used
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Wanna bet
You have posts and threads.
threads are supposed to be top to bottom. that is the normal way of writing in this nation to the best of my knowledge.
if you are telling your browser to sort otherwise alas that is your problem since that is not the norm in this country.
People keep "intentionally" I believe mis stating Posts as threads and applying rules thusly.
in fact from a purely technical point of view it is NOT needed to include ANY of the previous post. it is right their for you to read.
but setting your browser to hide read message and or server issues (out of order posts because some have not cleared your server yet) mean that is is "courteous" of the poster to include a "foot note" to allow you to get an idea of what is going on if for some strange reason you got out of the loop somewhere.
also please do not assume. I AM NOT calling the way I post top posting. I call it Question and then answer. the previous poster "called this" top posting so I continued that nomenclature.
Bottom posting is also a misnomer. it should be called "double posting"
it is not POSSIBLE for the POSTER to bottom or top post. whether message appear on the top or the bottom of each other is determined ONLY by the READER's browser. THEIR settings determine the chronological order of posts.
the only way you could have "jeapordy" style posting is if the READER tells is his browser to sort message chronologically in ascending order instead of the normal english style of descending order.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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Yes, that's how it should be. That's called bottom posting because your post is at the BOTTOM of my post. But that's not how you post. Right here I'm replying to your post that appears BEFORE my post in THIS message. See, the words above and below this paragraph are YOURS!

And these lines are from my original post which you responded to. Your response appears BEFORE the text you are responding to, thus you are fuilty of top posting and subject to the disciplinary action of Emily PostNews.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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Again you are either stubborn or delusional.
YOU DO NOT CONTROL THE ORDER OR POSTS AS A POSTER.
YOU DO NOT CONTROL which appear on top and which appear on bottom.
THE READER CONTROLS THIS.
if your using outlook just click the "Subject" header bar to toggle between ascending (bottom to top) or descending (top to bottom)
the READER controls this.
if you really want to get technical it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to top OR bottom post. you can only POST (and off course decide where to place your foot notes or quotes)
the READER decides how the message list is formatted.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

post
the
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Looking in a mirror again?
I snipped the inane crap about you trying to force another to not force you :_)
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Chris, you're confused about what people are calling "top" and "bottom" posting. It has NOTHING to do with the way messages appear in the reader's LIST; it's a description of where the new text is placed, by the WRITER, relative to the quoted context, IN A GIVEN MESSAGE.
For example, in this message I'm "top posting" - I am putting the new text on top. I'm doing this just for a comparison point - if you look at most of the messages I post, I usually format them the other way.
You have to assume that the message you are writing is the only one showing on the reader. For example, suppose I just opened a given newsgroup on my reader and yours is the only new mesage since I last looked in the group - then I will not see the previous message you responded to in the message list anywhere in the displayed list, since I already read it the last time I looked in the group.
-dave w
Chris Taylor Jr wrote:

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Below

I am not confused. you people are applying terms and rules from two different areas to one area.
Top to bottom deals with the content as a whole. top to bottom deals with MESSAGE AND REPLY
NOT Message and Quotes.

A matter of choice. One I find annoying and incorrect but it is your choice.

That is an assumption you make and an incorrect one. if you make THAT assumption then snipping is bad unless you are the ONLY reply to the thread.
if the thread is more than a few message long YOUR idea based on your above observation would MANDATE posts MANY MANY KB in size as the thread got longer and longer.
I am replying to one specific message. in that reply I am only interested in the PERSON I POSTED IT TO reading it. everyone else reading it is not my concern.
Example. in this message I am replying to YOU. you CAN NOT AND WILL NOT LOGICALLY tell me you need your content since YOU WROTE IT.
I leave old content in place to make life easier for others that may want to read this. but they should have read YOUR message first. if they can not or will not I am sorry but that is not my problem and everyone else should not have to be punished because of this.
This reply was complicated enough and addressing enough variety of points in your post that it became a brand new "message set" all its own. hence the interleaved posting. neither top nor bottom posting.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /
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Chris Taylor Jr wrote:

Chris, you don't get to decide what words mean. Top and Bottom posting refers to quoting messages, and has nothing to do at all with posting order or sorting of posts. Sorry if that's what you want it to mean, but it doesn't. It's perfectly obvious from reading any of dozens of USENET etiquette guides.
Repeating your erroneous notion over and over doesn't really change anything.
Brett
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http://www.html-faq.com/etiquette/?toppost
http://www.html-faq.com/etiquette/?quoting
http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html
http://www.river.com/users/share/etiquette /
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/read_me_first.htm
http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Top-posting_or_bottom-posting
There's plenty more...
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all meaningless.
Majority said having black slaves was ok too.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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Your getting off the subject.
typical
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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Since usenet is a random unconnected stream of semi-intelligence, thats a real bad idea. It's rare that in reading a message it replies to the message that was read immediately before it. Unless only 2 people are posting to a thread, and they wait longer than propigation delays, it's unlikely. In a thread like this it's almost guaranteed to not happen. The last message I saw before Chris's post about what he incorrectly thinks is top posting was a message from Alan, not from Chris or from me. My newsreader follows threads, in the order they showed up on my newsserver.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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