Copperheads & Aerotech...any tips?

Hello, was out at the park yesterday and finally got to fly my Onyx...beautiful flight on an F20-4 Econojet. My question for the group is this...my wife & I had a devil of a time trying to get the ignitor inserted into the slot in the propellent grain. Took us nearly half an hour for the F25-6 motor I had hoped to use for a second flight (but then the ignitor turned out to be bad so we gave up!). As it stands now, trying to insert the ignitor is like trying to push a wet noodle it just wants to bend rather than go into the slot and several ignitors had the pyrogen fall apart trying to get them inserted. Does anybody have any tips they care to share on how this process might be made a little easier? Any tools you use? Other brands of ignitor to consider? Thank you! Craig

If the accordion folded tip is not completely covered in pyrogen, it can flop around (wet noodle) and be annoying to insert. if you get one with pyrogen completely covering the accordion folded area and just below, the pyrogen stiffens it and allows it to be inserted easily.
Notify Aerotech of your igniter difficulties. If you got defective igniters, they should send you replacements.
Magnelite pyrogen on thin wires with nichrome wire at the tip works great for me as a replacement igniter.
http://www.rocketflite.com/products.asp
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117

On 2 Oct 2006 09:05:09 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@netzero.net wrote:
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Sometimes the nozzle throat is plugged because the molding process didn't happen correctly. When that has happened, I used an Exacto knife for clean out the hole. Don't enlarge the hole.
On RMS motors, I've put the ignitor in through the nozzle and into the core while assambling the motor. This isn't the greatest way to do it from a safety perspective. If in the unlikely event the ignitor lights, it could ruin your day.
Phil

snipped-for-privacy@ArielSystems.spamsks.net says...
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Ever wonder just how unlikely that is? I was watching "Dirty Jobs" the other night, and they were working in a coal mine. Guy drills some holes in the wall, then walks up with a box of dynamite sticks and yep, you guessed it, the electrical devices to cause the explosion were already inserted into the dynamite.

Phil Stein wrote:
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That's very unlikely, and the danger would be less than if the same unlikely event occurred when you inserted the igniter the "right" way.
The real concern about inserting the igniter during assembly is that the igniter head can't exit the nozzle during ignition, thereby plugging the nozzle and causing a CATO. Shouldn't be a problem with the igniter that came with the reload, but it might be a problem with other igniters. Just check the fit in the nozzle to make sure.

ok. Change unlikely to very unlikely. Still, no matter how unlikely, they should know it is possible.
As far as clogging the nozzle, if they cleaned out the nozzle as suggested in my first statement, it shouldn't happen.
Phil
On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:16:25 -0400, Steve Humphrey
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AT's instructions for the 18mm reload is to:
Install forward end Install fuel Install ignitor install nozzle and aft end.
The B7 motors from Apogee were about the most difficult (came with baby copperheads)!
Andy
Phil Stein wrote:
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I've made hand dipped igniters small enough to ignite these motors, that can be installed after assembly.
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They work fine on these motors too. An old friend told me that the best igniter for thse small composites were the old MRC igniters, which are the same as the new Quest igniters.

Many RSOs (including me) request that the ignitor be out of the motor before it is checked. With small motors, I would probably let it slide if the flier told me they were having problems.
Phil
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ModRoc RMS motor instructions say to install the Copperhead igniter before installing the nozzle. Even the 29mm G64's.
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I know. It doesn't change anything for me. Thanks for mentioning it.
Phil
On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 20:56:00 GMT, "Thomas Koszuta"
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I've seen it, too. I still never install the ignitor until I take it to the pad.
I stopped using Copperheads in favor of Firestar ignitors. I never had one fail on me, and the smallest ones fit easily into an Aerotech C-slot. I have used them successfully in 18mm reloadable motors.
Bill Sullivan
Phil Stein wrote:
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So you're enforcing a rule that is not required by law or safety code because _you_ think it is a good idea?
Do you work for the ATF?

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I still want to see the data substantiating the claims that ignitors go off spontaneously. I have several boxes of various e-matches and ignitors, have had for years, and have yet to have one "go off" sitting in my range box.

On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 14:34:58 -0400, Tweak
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This is what was said:
"Igniters built around an ematch, however, can accidently ignite under the right, but rare, circumstances when electricity is not connected to the igniter leads."
I'm sorry that you do not understand "rare circumstances"? If you want to know what the rare circumstances are, do a Google search or talk to a blaster. If you don't like the word "rare", how about "unlikely to be encountered by the rocketry hobbiest or pyrotechnician"?
By the way, ematches are regulated by the ATF. They should not be stored in your range box.

On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 14:34:58 -0400, Tweak
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I haven't seen it either. That doesn't mean it hasn't or couldn't happen. If I spend several hours of my day volunteering, I expect - no demand a little consideration. If someone else wants to do it so I don't have to, they are VERY welcome.
So I'm wondering if "Mister Are DO You Work For The ATF" spends at least a few volunteering at every launch.
Phil

On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 14:34:58 -0400, Tweak
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http://trs.nis.nasa.gov/archive/00000094/01/sp8051.pdf

snipped-for-privacy@nowhere.com says...
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NASA. 1971. 110 pages of info about ignitors, and nothing I saw relevant to spontaneous ignition aside from a mention that ignitors shall be tested to show they are not susceptible to electrostatic discharge and that systems are to be tested to determine their susceptibility to accidental ignition from current induced electromagnetic radiation. This covered hypergolic, pyro, and a handful of other ignition methodologies. But it was 110 pages of a scanned document (I could not search), so perhaps I missed something.
Anyway, this applies to modern dipped ematches used in toy rockets exactly how....?
That said, you must have one serious bug up your ass to still be gnawing on this bone. Ok, you win.

Phil is not the only one that uses and enforces the no igniter installed rule at the RSO table, for composite motors.
BTW, why would you ask the ATF question? Was it a joke -- didn't see a smiley face??
Fred
Thomas Koszuta wrote:
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On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 18:21:29 GMT, "Thomas Koszuta"
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That_is_right. If you don't like it, wait untill someone else is RSO.
No I don't.
If you don't like it, you can be RSO. If a motor goes off in your face, I'll be the guy laughing.
Phil