[FS] Hangar 11, Inc. motor availability

Hangar 11, Inc. [ www.hangar11.com ] has the following items available. We deliver to METRA, NEPRA and CTRA launches. Shipment via USPS or FEDEX ground.
LEUP is required for all motors over 62.5 g. All major CC accepted w/out surcharge. AMEX preferred , Paypal, personal checks., and CASH. Check out our motor prices.... J350 = $40.00 J570 = $60.00 Cesaroni specials will be honored for the month of September .AND at the METRA 10 4 & 5th launch. Order by email snipped-for-privacy@hangar11.com Or by phone 845-304-1303
AEROTECH H-123W-M 38/240 RMS AEROTECH H-180W 29/240 RMS AEROTECH H-242T RMS AEROTECH I-161 38/360 RMS AEROTECH I-211 38/480 RMS AEROTECH I-218R RMS AEROTECH I-284W-M 38/600 RMS AEROTECH I-357T AEROTECH J-350W 38/720 RMS AEROTECH J-420R RMS AEROTECH J-570W 38mm RMS AEROTECH E16-7W AEROTECH E23-5T AEROTECH F20-4W ECONOJET [2 PAK] AEROTECH F21-4W 24mm ECONOJET (2 PAK) AEROTECH F25-4W AEROTECH F25-6W AEROTECH F25-9W AEROTECH F40-10W AEROTECH G35-4W ECONOJET (2 PAK) AEROTECH G35-7W ECONOJET (2 PAK) AEROTECH G40-4W AEROTECH G40-7W AEROTECH G64-7W AMW L 700 Blue Baboon Reload 75/2500 AMW K 450 Blue Baboon Reload 75/1700 AMW J450 Super Tiger Reload 54/1050 AMW K530 Green Gorilla Reload 54/1400 AMW K670 Green Gorilla Reload 54/1750 AMW K1075 Green Gorilla Reload 54/2550 AMW J370 Green Gorilla Reload 54/1050 AMW K470 Super Tiger Reload 75/1700 AMW J357 White Wolf Reload 54/1050 AMW K475 White Wolf Reload 54/1400 AMW K570 White Wolf Reload 54/1750 AMW K600 White Wolf Reload 75/2500 CTI PRO 38 1 Grain Reload kit CTI PRO 38 2 Grain Reload kit CTI PRO 38 3 Grain Reload kit CTI PRO 38 4 Grain Reload kit CTI PRO 38 5 Grain Reload kit CTI PRO 38 6 Grain Reload kit ELLIS MOUNTAIN I134 38mm SU MOTOR ELLIS MOUNTAIN I134-15 38mm SU MOTOR ELLIS MOUNTAIN H48-P 38mm SU MOTOR ELLIS MOUNTAIN G35-6 29mm SU MOTOR ELLIS MOUNTAIN G35-10 29mm SU MOTOR ELLIS MOUNTAIN H50-6 29mm SU MOTOR ELLIS MOUNTAIN H50-10 29mm SU MOTOR ESTES A10-3T ROCKET MINI ENGINE (4) ESTES A8-3 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES A8-5 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES B4-2 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES B4-4 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES B6-2 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES B6-4 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES B6-0 ROCKET MOTOR (3) ESTES C6-3 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES C6-5 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES C5-3 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES C11-3 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES C11-5 ROCKET ENGINES (3) ESTES D12-0 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES D12-3 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES D12-5 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES E9-4 ROCKET ENGINE (3) ESTES E9-6 ROCKET ENGINE (3) AEROTECH RDK-03 PLUS 3 PAK AEROTECH RDK-05 PLUS 3 PAK AEROTECH RDK-09 PLUS 3 PAK AEROTECH RDK-12 PLUS 3 PAK AEROTECH RDK-15 PLUS 3 PAK AEROTECH RDK-26
-- Bobby B NAR 79350 L1 www.hangar11.com
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Too bad their unjustly asking for LEUP at this point in time..... *sigh*.
Or by phone 845-304-1303

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If NO LEUP is required then please answer the following
1- Why is there a law suit??? if it was not LAW then wait for the ATF to enforce illegally and fight then why in advance??? I guess it is required or somebody made a $250,000 mistake with our money. "The NAR and TRA have spent approximately $250,000 since the inception of the litigation" I don't think they are making a mistake... DO YOU????
2- Why did a major rocketry magazine recently print an article regarding "GETTING LEGAL" and setting up a club magazine.. Must be a whole club gone mad.... Wait.. I fly with 3 major clubs out east. Almost all of the serious HPR fliers have LEUPS damn they must be crazy too.....
3- Why is the ATFE issuing licenses and permits to rocketry people. Have you EVER seen a public agency or employee go out and look for more work??? in this case ALLOT more work... If this isn't proof positive what is????
4- Why did 9+ senators co sponsor S724? do you think the senate has nothing better to do than debate bills that exempt activities that do not need exemptions?
5- Why did 2 senators from NY and NJ bother to put S.724 on hold if addressed an already exempt activity. Are they mis informed that we are exempt already??? Maybe we should call them and clue them in....
6- Why does NFPA 1127 address rocketry and specifically allow indoor magazine storage for a residence. attached garage OR out building. The basis for receiving a variance for indoor residential storage from the ATF. Have the fire inspectors gone nuts too????
READ the lawsuit info on the TRA website... the ATF's position is stated.. as a user your risk is minimal.. as a dealer mine is considerable. My actions are based on documented fact and legal advice. NO I do not want nor endorse the regulation of our hobby. The accusations regarding the dangers involved in rocketry were written by imbeciles. We are no more dangerous than many other hobbies and we are also no less dangerous either... weapons come in many forms and regulation is useless when applied to legal activities. They need to focus and apply resources on getting the bad guys and leave us and many other sports and industries alone.
I guess I'm in good company being wrong in asking for the LEUP.... for now I'm going to stick with all of the WRONG people above and continue requesting a LEUP. until the lawsuit is settled, S724 passes or the ATFE admits we are PADS...
Please respect my actions and my dedication to the sport. A real business man would not put up with the regulation BS for the few dollars we can make on the items we sell. I can sell R/C at 2 to 3 X the mark up and ZERO regulation...... I believe in rocketry.. I want rocketry to grow and prosper. By keeping the flow of motors and rocketry related items available I feel I am supporting the hobby by accusing me of unjust actions you are damaging me and my business. ["sigh"]
If you really believe that LEUPS are not required please send a K or larger motor along to the ATF public safety branch and request that they respond with an exemption status... I'd be happy to stop requesting LEUPS once I see REAL proof in a letter with a 2003 date on it..... The older letters I have in my files indicating the J350 exemptions cannot be verified today.
If by chance you have researched this subject and have facts on recent documents to back up the NO LEUP status I'd love to see a copy.
Bobby B NAR 79350 L1 www.hangar11.com
Or by phone 845-304-1303

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Because of the actions of Aerotech over a decade asking consumers and dealers for ATF permits, that practice which was illegal the whole time CODIFIED into NFPA ny morons NAR and TRA and HPRMADA with ATF laughing their asses off the whole time. I was there. Physically in the room.
AT used it as a tactic to form a monopoly, which worked. Now the market has dropped in size by literally over 90% because those who CAN read and understand the law REFUSE to get an ATF permit to fly some propellant. Plenty of vendors (who are banned by TRA and NAR of course on this very issue and others) will sell you all the propellant you want. Why? Because it is perfectly legal. Of course.
Just fly at ANY indy launch. Since the market has contracted 90% there are ot that many NAR ort TRA launches of note anymore. LDRS being the one thorn in the side of the world at large. Where the terms Model Rocketry, High Power Rocketry, Amateur Rocketry, Ex rocketry and TRA/EX are munged together as if TRA has sole ownership over them.
They do not.
In fact TRA is a diming flicker in time and space whose only claim to power is the NFPA codes they co-author with such hate and vile for the general consumer and the true experimenter in rocketry at large. TRA HATES Lone Rangers!!

There are other issues being addressed by the lawsuit about the PROCESS ATF uses to "regulate" that are real and will be won.

Not on the lawsuit. But definitely and for SURE on supporting the claimed need for ATF permits at all in propelants which they ACTIVELY DO NOW IN DIIRECT OPPOSITION TO THEIR LAWSUIT POSITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. NAR and TRA themselves inserted language into NFPA-1127 that states propellants are explosives, require ATF permits and need to be magazined. Why would someone even do that? Why not be silent on the issue and let the law settle it? Or at bare minumum read and understand the law, which they did NOT.
2. NAR and TRA themselves REQUIRE ATF permits of motor manufacturers before the motors will be certified. This is illegal on several levels including and notably restraint of trade. This prctice was ADDED about the same time as the illegal NFPA-1127 references. The reference to manufacturers I believe also appears in NFPA-1125.
3. NAR and TRA themselves REQUIRE ATF permits BY CONSUMERS to make mail ordr transaction of motorts above an arbitraryu size (a weight limit). Gee I wonder where the ATF and Congress got that silly idea from? Hmmm. But the limit is not a clear one. No. Some vendors ask for LEUP for all motors above 62.5g (just to be safe - mega-morons), while others only ask for it on motor which have several slugs but contain CARTRIDGES under 62.5g (ie AT J350 and J570 38mm). BUT do they also have the same treatment of SU motors with individual cartridges of under 62.5g? Nope.
4. You are being administered by morons who canot read or understand law ansd who have the power of the pen to WRITE LAW and they do. Senselesssly and continuously.
"When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail." -Lotfi Zadeh
Just Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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One more question:
Is the manufacturer/vendor you're currently buying your motors from requiring YOUR LEDP for the purchase of H128s or J350s?
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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writes:

I have an LEIL allows direct import of motors... functions like an LEDP in the states.....
YES Cesaroni DID require an LEIL before they would even set up my account. I tried to buy the 1Gr G motors which ARE <62.5 and they politely declined until I had my LEIL.
Before May 24th AT did not require an LEDP / LEIL for their EZ access products. not sure about after since they had mine on file before May.....
Bob.. A question for you??? What kind of motor do you consider a J350 once its assembled???? under or over 62.5 GR???? regulated while assembled or unregulated????
ATFE's position is stated on page 29 of this document. [bottom ] if you understand something different after reading it please let me know maybe I'm missing something.... Please explain what they realy mean, I guess I am misunderstanding their words......
http://www.tripoli.org/courtDocuments/ATFPointsAuthoritiesForSummaryJudgement.pdf

http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.nar.org
http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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Interesting.
Are you selling ASSEMBLED motors?
I consider an unassembled J350 to be easy access. As do the dealers I buy from. I've never bought an assembled J350 from anyone, nor seen them sold that way.
The J350 is legally no different from the H123s I bought last month from a local dealer. The person behind the counter was unknown to me. Never asked for an LEUP, or for that matter anything else.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) wrote:

Cesaroni has a HEUP and commercial interests to protech by not rocking the ATF boat AT and NAR and TRA sank. He agrees the law does not require a permit but considering his other far more lucerative business ventures he is traveling the path of greatest compliance with what he as a foreigner with NO RIGHTS has been asked to comply with. In his case it can be argued that both vernbal notices and letter rulings apply no matter how illegal and nonsensical they might be.
But once you get the motors in the USA you are required by LAW to LOG THEM OUT of your magazine and store them in the shipping containers in a cool, dry place.
Any place.

You consider. Gary says. You or someone interprets. Bullshit. The law states, not interprets.
55.141 exemptions (a) (8) Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes.

Or a N6000 or a Q12000.
I bought last month from a

Ironically a Q12000 is a potentially over the counter Wal-mart item. Got your Visa card handy? Only about $20,000 each. Buy three!
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Bobby, Is there any reason you can't just sell single grain 38mm reloads to us? Would it really matter if you sold me an order of 6 single grains packed individually? It would seem reasonable to me that you have no control over what I actually do with them. If you happened to sell individual liners (body tubes : )) at various lengths we could put together whatever we needed.
The harsh reality for me is that since you are the only motor vendor at our METRA launches, and I won't be getting an LEUP, I will fly only up to "F" motors at the club launches. Consequently I tend to not make every launch now since my interests lean more to larger motors/rockets. The EX launches are few and far between around here but at least still give me an opportunity to fly. I have started making my own AP motors now (since Jeff Taylor's propellant class) so while I can still "get" AP motors, I am pretty limited in where I can fly them. I end up doing more static testing now than flying.
I think everyone is frustrated to see the hobby in decline and feeling like there is nothing we can do about it. I understand your position completely but sure wish there was a way I (and many others I am sure) could buy more motors from you at the launches.
Hang in there,
Stuart Leslie
--
------------------------------------------------------
"bobbyb" < snipped-for-privacy@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
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That is only legal if that is the "intended use" of the manufacturer. Does AeroTech directly condone this as does USR?

Which raises yet another point. Why cannot a person show up at a launch and fly whatever he can afford on-site? The ATF regs even if they applied to propellants as though they were explosives, which they do not, allow field use of explosives by unlisenced personnel under the supervision of the lisencee.
You really think all those mexican ditch diggers and miners have HEUP's?

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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The funny thing about the single 38 mm grain case is that it exists. DR Rockets makes a single 38 mm case x 120 Ns. So it maybe possible in the future ?
JD
writes:

May.....
you
maybe
http://www.tripoli.org/courtDocuments/ATFPointsAuthoritiesForSummaryJudgement.pdf
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First of all thiat is a lawsuit paper and has no standing whatsoever outside of court. It does not even have meaning within the administrative activities of ATF. It is a legal position in an extreme way to offset yet another legal position, of the NAR/TRA.
One cannot read a lawsuit paper and garner any useful information about current law as it is written. Remember law is required (by law) to be hunam readable. Understandable in the "common man's definition". ATF is stretching that several light-years beyond the breaking point to try to get jurisdiction over rockets and it is failing. Hard.
Jerry
Here is what we are to understand in the commmon man's definition:
27 CFR 55.11, "Propellant Actuated Device. Any tool or special mechanized device or gas generator system which is actuated by a propellant or which releases and directs work through a propellant charge."
This definition is what is referred to in 27 CFR 55.141(a)(8)
55.141 exemptions (a) (8) Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes.
Emphasis on "any" and "or". How do you read that? Is an N motor exempt or not?

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Bobby,
From what I have read, easy access does still exist. The document you continually refer to is BATFE's view in a request for summery judgement. You keep asking why is there a law suit.. it is for the guys flying 54mm and bigger.
I'll ask you this, if there is no easy access why is there a NPRM the BATFE is trying to push through??? It is to eliminate the 62.5 g slug rule. Then easy access would truly be gone.
You are losing business.
I know of several dealers who will sell me 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 grain pro-38 without a LEUP...all done with the knowledge of their BATFE agent. Granted everything I buy I fly, but they are still sold to me with out a LEUP.
Steve Schafer NAR #80427 L2
writes:

http://www.tripoli.org/courtDocuments/ATFPointsAuthoritiesForSummaryJudgement.pdf
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snipped-for-privacy@adv-tech.com (Steve Schafer) wrote:

In errortech's mind.
NOT in law. Never did, never will.

BS.
They are modifying one of the MANY exemption claues (555.141-a-7-v in this case) to include new language to replace the older defective language with new even more defective language.
It's a way to make an exemption unenforceable. It might work too.

It's gone now. General access does exist for ALL rocket motors, propellants, PADS with a-8. ALL. ALL. I said ALL.

Stop it!!

Ask them to send you a Q. Got $20k?
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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ment.pdf
Checkmate Jerry
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comNOSPAM (Bill Rossi) wrote:

I replied to this message . I cited in tremendous detail how it supports our cause and not theirs. They literally don't have a leg to stand on.
Not that that stops them from what they ARE doing.
Hence the lawsuit.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Jerry I am impressed. you are FINALLY seeing the light.
Rules are irrelevant enforcement is everything.
Those that enforce define the rules.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

.
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Asserting your rights in the face of ILLEGAL enforcement is not merely your right as a free citizen but your DUTY.
DO YOUR DUTY EVERY DAY.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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PROVE IT

yet
27 CFR 555.141-a-7-v ONLY
SHOW ME A SIGNED LETTER (NOT A FAX) from the ATF NATIONAL OFFICE (not a local office) saying we do NOT need a LEUP because of 27 CFR 555.141-a-7-v ONLY
SHOW ME THE PROOF.
SHOW ME THE PROOF that will keep me out of jail or court should they try and nail me.
27 CFR 555.141-a-7-v does not count unless the ATF SAYS IT COUNTS
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /
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\
See http://www.atf.treas.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/qanda.pdf
page 10 (page 62 of the "Orange Book")
66. Who must meet storage requirements? All persons who store explosive materials must store them in conformity with the provisions of Subpart K of the regulations, unless the person or the materials are exempt from regulation. [18 U.S.C. 842(j), 845; 27 CFR 55.29, 55.141, 55.164, 55.201(a)]
Note the reference to 55.141.

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