NAR has the NARTREK program already in place. Maybe add a Platinum level (E, F & G) and a discount on dues for those that complete it. Insurance should be cheaper for a skilled rocketeer, right?
Patrick - next someone will want mandatory reporting of all failed flights... ain't insurance fun?!?
If they would deregulate HPR they would cash in HUGE on the growth spurt. First club to do it wins.
Jerry
Thank you for that. I have been saying that several ways over the years.
I think the issue is that the sheer volume needed to make a profit on the smaller motors tends to increase (real? perceived?) risk... if there's a one-in-a-million chance that any given flight will start a million dollar grass fire, would your insurer rather see you sell a million $1 motors or ten thousand $100 motors?
-dave w
I think the risks are greater with low power. High power flyers are adults (or must be supervised by adults), they must prove they have at least minimal competence, and the vast majority fly only at group launches under controlled conditions. Modrocs flyers are often children, they don't have to prove any degree of competence, and they can and do often fly on their own outside of organized launches.
The size of the rockets is only a small factor in determining true risk (or should be). If I was an insurer, I'd be far more worried about some idiot kid starting a 100,000 acre brushfire that destroys scores of homes and kills a half dozen people.
" I think the issue is that the sheer volume needed to make a profit on the smaller motors tends to increase (real? perceived?) risk... if there's a one-in-a-million chance that any given flight will start a million dollar grass fire, would your insurer rather see you sell a million $1 motors or ten thousand $100 motors?"
This makes no logical (or statistical) sense. You are supposing there is a one in a million chance for each flight. Therefore there is identical risk for each flight no matter how large the sample size (number of flights).
In other words the odds of a fire are the same if you launch once or one million times. Each event is unique.
By your reasoning my chances of winning the lottery increase the more often I play.
None whatsoever, nor did I claim to be. But it stands to reason that flyer certs would only have a positive effect on insurance rates if they could provably reduce risks, and the only way that would happen is if there was some mechanism in place to make certs mandatory.
Look at it this way: Why would flyer certs reduce the risk of liability to manufacturers? Because it means that only those who have proven their competence would be using those motors. But if the certs aren't mandated, then anyone could be using them and so you're no better off than you were without them.
I don't think that even that method would hold much sway with an insurer, since there's no mandate requiring it. All you'd have is the manufacturer's promise. Even if the manufacturer sticks to it, he can't make the retailers do it.
You are all delusional. The ONLY thing the insurer looks at is the fact the products are in the "hobby" catagory. They do not care about certs, safety codes or anything you care about. They care about accident rates and only those available in internal insurance association records.
Look at it this way.
The Aerotech accident was "hobby product related" and resulted in one death, several injuries, over $6m in damages (perhaps 12) and was underinsured (insufficient premiums collected by the agent).
That is a HUGE negative for any new company coming along for insurance. FAR worse than any of the nitpicky crap people have been discussing here on rmr.
Certifications, consumer or product are IRRELEVENT to insurance companies.
Risk and premiums are ALL they care about.
Or "Firestarters"-tm.
Insured
Classified
ATF'd
CSFM'd
Even TRA certified for a decade.
Then arbitrarily decertified. Not for lack of any of the proper approvals, but for a political war by ex-business partners breaching their fiducuiary duty to the association they are a board member of.
Jerry, are you now claiming your motors are CSFM approved?
Are you now admitting that Chuck Rogers was an "ex-business partner", as opposed to "Current business partner"?
what USR motors were certified for a decade(ten years)?
Maybe so, but I find it hard to believe that having product available to the general public, including children, is not a big factor. Especially in a hobby with an excellent safety record, meaning the insurers have very little evidence on which to base their estimates for the cost of an accident.
In high power, they have few if any reported incidents on which to determine payout costs, but they at least know that the product is only available to adults with a proven level of competency.
For modrocs, there is not only a record of brushfires being started and injuries due to misuse; but also they know that the product is available to anyone, anywhere.
To limit insurance costs. Sadly, insurance is one of those things where you have to pay through the nose but get screwed if you ever need to get anything in return.
Also, it may help to limit the liability of launch organizers, landowners, motor manufacturers, etc. (or should, anyway). You know how liability lawsuits go -- the lawyers target everyone, hoping to find someone with deep pockets.
True, but on the other hand, that A8-3 is just as capable of starting a brushfire that wipes out hundreds of homes. Also, I've seen a Boy Scout's modroc on a C motor go through the rear window of a pickup truck and embed itself in the dash.
Agreed.
They have a 45 year track record. Hence why my insurance was a mere $5000.
Thank you NAR. Except you refused to certify the motors that were licensed and insured.
They group all "hobby" into one catagory. To them HPR=MR which is part of the reason for the Estes/Quest/Boles/Roberts/Stine hysteria till they realized MR kills people but HPR is shockingly safe.
Even the AT fire was MR related.
Those do not generate claims to NAR or manufacturers.
Jerry
Oh, are you an insurance underwriter? I was not aware that I was talking to someone with more direct knowledge of insurance practices.
No, it is utterly pointless without relief from insurance premiums, and the insurance industry would have to determine or agree to the user certification requirements. Certifying users is easy, getting the insurance industry to lower premiums is hard. Doing the former without the latter is what has no merit.
Alan
No, user certification would be entirely voluntary, but the insurance industry might "mandate" the certification requirements.
Certainly not. But as an interested consumer, I'd be willing to entertain discussions with insurance industry reps to help achieve my objective. I have no interest in debating you or winning an argument. I do wnat you and others to understand the issue that I have raised and to start thinking of ways that certified model rocket motors can be made more available and at lower cost to consumers. Let's not get bogged down in the minutia of dumb kids starting A3-4t grass fires, or whatever.
Alan
Free advise. Ain't gonna happen.
If NAR/TRA were following the law about ATF permits, insurance companies would not view rocket motors as explosives though. That change is a mere stroke of the pen at two silly little clubs.
That possibility seems even more remote.
Jerry
@!$@$ WEBTV!!!
RE: L0 certs
I would agree to something along these lines as a new launcher if it meant saving enough to afford a few extra motors at the end of the year by being certified L0 or whatever. My local hobby shop gives 20% off the bottom line to current NAR or Tripoli card holders without regard to level attained by the holder. Granted I support him for the obvious reasons to support the neighborhood hobby shop but appreciate the discount which makes his prices comparable with the better internet prices or close to it. Being on a tight budget it does sometimes motivate me to buy more from his shop than I normally would and would likely do the same for others if attached to an L0 type program. But unfortunately probably not with the percentage of certs desired to really help the perceived risk factor of the insurance underwriters. It would need way more visibility for the hobby on a local level and the local clubs stressing safety and education in conjunction with manufacturers and shop owners pushing and educating certification. At least in my area unless you really go hunting rocket enthusiast you'd never know they exist they're so transparent, but you can drop into Wally World r Hobby Lobby, etc. pick up an RTF Estes set and never think anything beyond launching it anywhere,anytime. I really had to do my homework to find out about the launch sight let alone launch schedules etc. even though we have lots of rocketeers in the region.
Scott Hart NAR 79232
Date: Fri, Jan 30, 2004, 4:18am (CST+6) From: snipped-for-privacy@nospam.mchsi.com (Alan=A0Jones) On 29 Jan 2004 20:51:25 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:
Problem is, how are you going to convince all those kids they need to be NAR certified? I would not. They would be self motivated to become certified users by the prospect of buying motors at a reduced cost. Furthermore, one condition for L0 or L00 demanded by the insurance industry might well be that certified users must be adults, in which case "kids" would be a non issue. =A0=A0Worse yet, stores would have to require NAR certification before you could buy low power motors. Do you think they'd bother to do that, or would they just stop carrying Estes stuff? And if you don't put these restrictions into place, the certs would have no effect on insurance at all because they're unenforced. There is an issue of how a dual price structure could be implemented. conceptually what today is a $10 pack of motors, could be priced at $5 with a $5 insurance pass through (or Tax) for non certified consumers. If you show your certification card, you could buy the motors for only $5. This of course would be extremely unpopular with retailers and uncertified users. More likely the regular price will still be $10, but certified users could get a $5 discount. This $5 discount might be in the form of a manufacturers rebate to certified consumers. Or the discount might only be available on direct purchases from the manufacturer or authorized distributor. Then too, you could have a manufacturer who decides only to sell to the small pool of certified users. But nobody is going to stop selling Estes stuff to non certified users as long as there is a dime to made. Alan
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