Wouldn't this be a good time for negotiations with the BATFE?

Never.

Point.

I doubt it.

Horrificly bad idea.

Not once. He asked "questions" responsive to trolls.

Watch.

Huh?

Not sure I understand what you are trying to say??

I'm not sure I understand your logic, but whatever you do, good luck.

Yes, I curse the day I allowed myself to become involved. However, there was some good that did result; several individuals were not caught up in situations, that appeared both questionable and illegal.

Who sent the shipment in Question?

I bet most posters here cannot read and understand this.

ray: you almost getting as bad as JI when it comes to "selective responses"..

comments inline shockie B)

ps I was w> over time, as people discovered the hobby and were aware upfront that they

.......

obviously you didn't read the part of my post about sponsoring/helper....... the cost of a LEUP is a canard on your part Ray...IF a person can afford to do HPR, they can afford the cost of a LEUP......

.........

........

I would submit that a large number of people have been doing just that: getting LEUPS to participate in HPR over the past

10 years...... I mean both the NAR/TRA has been recommending that its members do so for at least that long....

........

over-regulation of

......... again Ray, selective response, I pointed out why it would be important to know...

IF the NAR/TRA right now knew who had LEUP, and who had storgae, they could implement a program that would put LEUP holders with storage into contact with LEUP that only has contingent stoarge. It would facilitate HPR instead of restrict it...

You like the NAR/TRA do not want these figures known, because it will put to rest the question about whether we should even have a lawsuit. Think about it... If the overwhelming majority of NAR/TRA senior members, RIGHT NOW, have a LEUP, then what is the purpose of the lawsuit? Who is the lawsuit for? It certainly isn't going to benefit those people who already got LEUPS now is it? I guess all the people who have taken the time to get LEUP's in your eyes are considered traitors to the cause? They must also not have any backbones huh? .........

......

well perhaps...perhaps they just see the writing on the wall and decided to bite the bullet, so to speak....

........

The problem is not the cost. It is the approvals for an unneeded magazine.

Both now deny it interestingly.

So post a summary of links of them making the recommendations for FAQ fodder.

Only because the rest have dropped out. The 80% drop in business happened.

Just Jerry!

True.

Jerry

JI: well it appears they have scrubbed any references to getting LEUPS......damn I feel like i'm in the novel 1984, where history is revised on a regular basis.....whoa...

more responses inline..

shockie B)

sponsoring/helper.......

....... Again you must not either be reading what I say or ignoring it.... My proposal for the NAR/TRA knowing which of its members had LEUP with storage was to overcome this problem. IF a NAR/TRA member wanted to get a LEUP but could only get contingent storage then the NAR/TRA could provide him with the name(s) of people potentially nearby, that has LEUP with storage.... this would facilitate this person getting a LEUP....

......

Jerry you have more audacity and sheer gall than anybody I have ever seen or known.... Here we are, the rocketry community, in a life or death struggle with the powers of darkness descending on us, and what do you do? Ship and mail high power rocket engines to people...Dude, what were you thinking? And I also happen to know from talking with people that you or an agent of yours is shipping G00008 size motors through I assume the US mails. What do you think is going to happen if they figure that out? What if the DOT had turned this over to the ATF? And how do we know that they didn't alert them to this fact? I mean its just more flodder for the forces that oppose us......

The NAR in my opinion should revoke your membership for doing this. If this isn't a violation of a Safety Code I don't know what is. You have had too many chances......

And this next part is directed to the owner(s) of ROL.....

/RANT ON I just ragged on Jerry about shipping and or mailing motors illegally through the US mails or other means... WHAT ROL is facilitating is also hurting this hobby. YOU are facilitating (some might call it conspiring and I might add the FEDS have really BROAD definitions of what conspriacy is) to allow people to use your auction service to sell model rocket and high power rocket motors via the US Mails.... which in case you haven't looked lately, is a FEDERAL CRIME. Why do you think that EBAY will not allow auctions of rocket motors? because there is NO legal way to ship them, thats why... Now I can already hear the whinning.....well you don't know who the people are selling the motors, maybe they have the paperwork to allow it.. blah blah blah....yeah right, anybody can just sign up for an account and just start selling motors thru the mails.....We all know ROL is not "vetting" who these people are, if they have paperwork that allows them to ship motors legally......AND WE AS A ROCKETRY COMMUNITY TURN A BLIND EYE TO IT.... So much for Self-Regulation and self-policing......It appears we can't self-regulate ourselves outta a paper bag.....

and what does our NAR/TRA have to say about this? Nothing.... Doesn't anybody see the problem here? Well how about person A selling a HPR motor to person B and not having anyway to know if Person B is certified or not? I wonder how the NAR/TRA would look upon a company that sold HPR to people without certification?

Doesn't anybody see the problem here? No? well let me draw you an outline: lets say Postal Inspectors pretend to be buyers and sellers of MR/HPR motors.... I think they call it a "sting".....and it goes on for months and months.....and then they swoope down and bust maybe 50-100 people around the country and talk about breaking up a ring of people illegaly buying and selling and mailing explosives through the US mails......see what can happen? Another success in the WAR ON TERRORISM.....

/rant off

the nAR and censure him.

There is nothing that needs to be stored in a magazine so the entire effort is useless.

Thanks Steve, Forever New Frontiers..

Fred

default wrote:

that Jerry was

airplane parts or

learned, the more

The latest turn has you jumping off the "Jerry must be legal because the FEDs haven't touched him" bandwagon and now blaming others for his problems. You are mistaking "I told you so's" and "let's hope this shuts him ups" for "rejoicing in his troubles".

Just because an agency makes it easy for plantiffs to pay, somehow makes it a less credible violation? I don't follow your logic. It appears you're grasping at straws to make your man Jerry seem somewhat of a martyr or something.

steve

Hey, I don't agree with the outcome, I was only saying I think "they think" they've made a permit for hobbiests. In my opinion the limited permit is useless. It wasn't a well thought out solution for the normal activities of a rocket flyer.

steve

No, Dave has called folks who catch you in lies "narcs", "snitches", "trolls" etc. Just like you do.

Cool, are you going for a bigger fine now?

I think for many it's not so much the money as having be "officially registered as a person not distrusted by the government" - the whole fingerprint/"background check"/etc. business... I know some would say, "well if there's nothing alarming in your Federal Background you shouldn't mind" but I know that a lot of folks just don't want to put up with that. (We know that we're _so_ "not-Terrorists" that we'd resent being expected to jump through hoops to prove it...)

Also, the "aren't all the HPR folks getting LEUP's anyway" ignores the fact that until this time last year they were only required to "acquire 'Explosives' in interstate commerce", not from dealers from one's own state.

-dave w

First time - $100 for 3 years ( + one time photo and fingerprint:

You are obviously a newbie since you've never seen Ray say that he can't get a LEUP. He's been saying it for years. Notice I said can't not doesn't want to or it's not needed.

al: now you see the great divide...

There are people like me who can see the future....and the future is comprised of LEUP's for any rocket motor pad over 62.5g...

the other camp still don't want to accept the inevitable... They actually do believe in this day and age, that courts are going to rule for us....They also will harangue anybody in the rocketry community who disagree with their views that APCP is not an explosive and LEUPS should not be required..... That is the "party line".... If you disagree with the party line or suggest some form of moderation you are labeled spineless, appeasers,cowards,idiots,etc etc.....

I mean the NAR on its OWN website says that LEUPS are required for any HPR motor over 62.5 g....and they have been telling its members to get LEUPS for

10 years now...

We all know where the lawsuit is headed..... BATFE will try to implement NPRM968 and NAR/TRA will sue based on its so called "flaws"..... lets assume the NAR/TRA wins and the courts rule the NPRM 968 is flawed, basically all the BATFE then has to do, is re-do the NPRM again and this time take into consideration to NOT redo any flaws.....so we win but we actually lose, all we have accomplished is a delaying tactic and action....we have delayed when the original NPRM 968 will have gone into effect... same thing for the redefinition of the PAD exemption....You don't think the BATFE is not aware that we are going take them to court over NPRM968? I'm sure they do so when they do the NPRM for the PAD exemption they will cross all the T's and dot all the I's making sure that it passes any legal challenge....

SO basically all this lawsuit and any further lawsuits is accomplishing is delaying the inevitable and draining our financial resources....

Now the organizations that represent us are stuck between a rock and a hard place, for example, 80% plus of the NAR senior membership are certified which implies they are doing HPR.... Its 100% for the TRA ..... So its not like they can do nothing or even change course or even moderate their course of action , those 80% would not hear of it. In other words, if the NAR/TRA leadership proposed any moderation of activities against the BATFE, they would be in danger of being voted out of office. And there are other forces at work. The NAR/TRA leadership will never admit that perhaps they may have been wrong.... To moderate their views now would point that out to many that they may have been wrong and the result would be the same, they would lose their positions of power and authority. SO they will instead just continue to plod along with their delaying actions into we reach the BATFE nirvana of full regulatory compliance.....

mark my words, at some point in time in the future, it maybe 3- 5 years it may be as long as 10 years, most of us will look back and see a massive waste of time and money.....and our leadership will say, "well I told you that we may not be successful"...

shockie B)

There was/is a user (limited) of explosives permit available that is good for a one time only purchase. It is not the same as the new, congressionally mandated, limited permit.

Bob Kaplow wrote: > In article , "default" writes: >