Wouldn't this be a good time for negotiations with the BATFE?

You know, it occurs to me that right now would be the best time there could be to have a pow-wow with the BATFE maggots and come up with a solution that satisfies both groups before we have to go through the whole legal muck again.

If we NAR/TRA folks don't start negotiating with the feds now, the we stand a good change of losing the PAD exemption we just had vindicated. If there's one thing I do know is that the BATFE it probably right now comming up with the wording for the NPRM that will kill the PAD exemption.

I don't expect that we will get away without SOME form of regulation from the feds. But, I do think that if we try to work with the BATFE in a POSITIVE manner, that we could help draft regulations that aren't so troublesome as they BATFE would want them to be.

What do I think could be done? Optimistically, it would be an addendum to the PAD exemption specifically to deal with rocket motors. It would define what SU, reloadable, and hybrid rocket motors are; what their consitituant propellant components are; and what the properties of the propellant components must conform to (i.e. non-detonatable APCP/ANCP with a burn veloctity not to exceede 1 M/s [I admit that do not know if this figure is accurate, it's just an example]).

Realistically, I know that a full exemption is a pipe dream. The BATFE will NEVER willingly give up regulatory jurisdiction over anything within their sphere of influence. If we can't get a full exemption, we SHOULD lobby for the creation of a specific consumer rocketry license. Since we would only ever be working with a very small range of materiels, we shouldn't have to have a full LEUP with all the onerous storage and inspection requirements it carries. The license would:

1) Not be expensive to obtain or renew. 2) Still require the initial fingerprinting and background checks. 3) Not require the inspections or detailed record keeping. 4) Not place weight limits on individual motors or their components. 5) Allow APCP/ANCP/BP storage in accorance with NFPA regs. (50#, type-4 mag, attached garage). 6) Etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

I know that some folks won't like the fingerprinting and background checks, but it IS the job of the BATFE to keep explosives out of the hands of criminals, AND, Judge Walton did agree with the BATFE that APCP deflagrates , SO the BATFE is justified to put it on the list of explosives. By keeping the background checks a part of the licensing process, the BAFTE can proudly proclaim that they are doing their job. The ability to slap one's own back, or sing one's own praises is critical to federal types.

If the NAR/TRA consortium is not, or has not considered starting an out-of- court dialog with the BATFE, then they need to get of their collective rear-ends and do so. Negotiating never hurt anything. If nothing else, it would give us a guage of just what their stance is.

This is just my ramblings. I doubt anything like this will occur. The NAR/TRA folks don't seem to listen to their members much these days. They seem to have their own agendas, and I for one, haven't been able to figure out what they are.

Reply to
Jeff Richardson
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The BATFE has shown ZERO interest in any sort of compromise, to date. Whatever makes you think that's gonna change?

-Kevin

Reply to
Kevin Trojanowski

Kevin,

Do you know if anyone has tried since Buckles left? Also who from TRA contacted them? If it was back in the Kelly days, it's no wonder there's a problem.

Reply to
Phil Stein

even though Mr. Kelly is no longer a trustee, I have no doubt that he still is a "power behind the throne"... ie his input is taken into account beofre any major TRA decisions are made or will be made....

face it folks.....the days of the PAD are numbered as is the imposition of the 62.5 g limit is on the horizon.....

What BATFE wants, BATFE will get......

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

I'm sorry, Phil, but pinning this one on Bruce is a serious mistake.

Also, keep in mind that the BATFE answers to Ashcroft. Hardly an individual with whom I would associate the word "flexibility", unless there were some strong negation in between.

-Kevin

Reply to
Kevin Trojanowski

But NAR/TRA are horrifically bad negotiators.

Moronic in fact.

I rock, but NAR/TRA refuse to ratify what I achieve.

NIH.

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Stop suing their ass?

Just Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

DOZENS OF MEMBERS.

ALSO TRUE.

A bit surprised to hear you admit it.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Wrong.

NFPA meeting. I was in the room.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Can it hurt to try?

And by try, I don't mean stomping into any discussion with the "You will pry my N2000 from my cold dead fingers" approach. I dealt with federal agents in two places:

BXA (15CFR-774) - where we were trying to ship NC machine tools that cut fabric to the former Soviet Union (when the presence of an 80386 in the equipment 1997 was considered a threat to national security).

Radiological Safety (21CFR) - where we had to place 15 labels on a machine because if a anaesthetized rhesus monkey could have the small laser that indicated the zero point shine into it's dilated eye for 10 continuous minutes it might suffer retinal damage - never mind that the beam only traveled 3 inches

In both cases they were as conservative as you can imagine. In both cases, they had the upper hand, so we talked to them and worked with them. We were successful every time.

I've watched this for a while and all it seems to me is that we are bent on antagonizing them. Face it folks, unless we have a world of money to spend on litigation, we are going to lose this one with the tactics I have seen to date. For what it is worth, I encourage the various organizational leaders (and those of you who lead indirectly by your technical merit), to consider alternate approaches.

Either that or get used to E-motor clustering.

Remember - these people are not idiots, stormtroopers, maggots, or what have you. They are trying to do a difficult job. If we are a nuisance, they can squash us and move on to bigger matters.

IMHO our best path would be to see if we can work with them at a grass roots level and get creative.

A
Reply to
Al Gloer

We have a pretty good PAD exemption right now! Why do you want to undermine that???

Tell that to Neville Chamberlain.

Maybe you should try PAYING ATTENTION. Then you'd know something of the history behind all this, and you'd know that negotiation has been tried. It's the ATF that doesn't want to listen, not TRA/NAR.

Reply to
RayDunakin

Thank you for that forecast, Mr. Doom 'n Gloom. You can go back to handwringing now, while the rest of us fly rockets.

Reply to
RayDunakin

Jerry blathered:

Prove it.

Reply to
RayDunakin

Jerry, you keep proving that it's impossible to underestimate the depths of your stupidity. We sued ATF _after_ they refused to compromise.

Reply to
RayDunakin

Big whoop. They weren't ATF.

Reply to
RayDunakin

Because you haven't achieved anything. Go crawl back under your rock.

Reply to
RayDunakin

Reply to
Phil Stein

In case you missed it, I am NOT a Kelly fan. I think he drags down TRA's image & caused a lot of problems with TRA's relationship with members. Don't get me started on HPR.

I guess he did good things too. I'll leave that part for Ray to answer.

Reply to
Phil Stein

Paper wraps rock.

Reply to
Phil Stein

That was tried after the law suit was initiated. The BAFTE did not offer any compromise and did not negotiate in good faith. They simply used it to delay the legal decision. It was the biggest mistake made by the NAR/TRA and their legal team.

I suggest that we do not negotiate away any of what we have won. We probably have a full flying season without needing a LUEP to purchase, store, and fly HPR PADS. This will be the "happy time", and I urge rocketeers with the money and interest to fly HPR as much as possible during this window of opportunity that we paid so dearly for. Your memory and stories will last a lifetime, even after you are shut out of HPR.

Alan

Reply to
Alan Jones

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